The price for 'personal freedom' at football

[NMH]

The furor is emerging, the day after the event - and as always there will be nothing lasting done to change anything.

I've discussed it with people here and it's pretty-much always "Swedes won't change, their social politics are too firmly embedded for them to agree to a responsibility when attending events" and "it is too expensive to make the changes" - this despite the regular expenditure per game for police, that exceeds most League 1 clubs for a whole season.

These links may be of interest (using Google-translate unless you read Swedish), but those like Simplestirrer can always let everyone know how retarded it all is and in his usual bile-filled manner bounce my thread for me I expect to be told how sharing this stuff is so utterly self-indulgent etc, efforts that are much appreciated.

Syrianska-AIK avbruten efter skandalscener - DN.SE

AIK kan räkna med hårda straff - DN.SE


[yt]82nkv6egDw4[/yt]

 

[NMH]

On a pleasant note, from the Swedes;

Brighton | England


(again, google-translate to read the above in English)

 

[SweBHAFC]

Not really sure what you are trying to say with this thread. That things are "bad" in Sweden or that we would see similar scenes at falmer if circumstances are the same? Maybe both..?

Anyways, glad you enjoy a bit of Swedish football. Bummer that your reading glasses broke (no pun intended......). Aik fans will always be the same. Google a daily mail article about aik from about 10 years ago. Should shed some light on the *****.

4 5

Gothenburg & brighton loyal

 

[SweBHAFC]

Found the article (sitting in san Fran airport and the wifi is really slow)

PRESSURE? PREMIERSHIP BOSSES SHOULD LOOK AT WHAT LIFE IS LIKE WITH AIK STOCKHOLM...

By GRAHAM HUNTER
Gangsters, bombings, beatings...they even make threats against women and children

ASK ANY Premiership manager and he will tell you, only half jokingly, that his life is brutally hard, filled with aggro and probably driving him to an early grave.
The players, too, would cough up a few moans and groans about pressure, hassle and living under the media spotlight. But there is no job in England´s 92 league clubs which does not pale into insignificance compared with the death threats, letter bombs and violent intimidation which are the way of life at AIK Stockholm. The club, chasing the Swedish title, produced Coventry goalkeeper Magnus Hedman have former Arsenal winger Anders Limpar as their playmaker, employ Spurs target Johan Mjällby in midfield and are managed by a scot, Stuart Baxter. There, an early grave is a prospect which player and staff do not joke about. They have too much genuine fear of it every day. Pure evil runs unchecked among nasty hard core och AIK fans whos threaten players´ wives and children send incendiary devices to club staff and kneecap fellow supporters over drug debts. AIK´s British connections go further as it was in their stadium that Chelsea won last season´s Cup-winners´ Cup and where England last month. Despite the links, AIK could not be further divorced from the normality of the Premiership if they played home games on Mars.

"The hole club is in a grip of terror"

It defies belief that people who pursue a living in sport are subject to such barbaric conditions. Before England´s recent Stockholm international, keeper Hedman gave an interview in which he admitted how close he had been been to becoming one of those criminals who populate the Råsunda stadium in support of AIK. Hedman said: "Without sport I would have been an criminal, although perhaps my parents might have saved me. Those of my friends who went bad had it really tough, but when I say they have gone bad, I mean heavy criminality." By heavy criminality he means people who run drugs, send bombs, carry guns and threaten women and small children. They have AIK in such grip of terror that players are often prevented from transferring because The Firm, the most dangerous fan group, would not like it. Bodyguards travel with the squad and Stockholm´s police spend more time in and around the club than in the local cop-shop. It is difficult to get anyone to speak openly about the horrific conditions in the otherwise delightful Swedish capital. But some are willing to describe the most frightening episode this season, one in wich two lives were nearly lost.

A club insider said: "We all took a much different view of the threats when they sent a letter bomb to the head of AIK security. He already knew that they were out to get him but these guys were smart about it. They sent something purporting to have a video in it but he checked it out when it was delivered and could feel there were wires attached so he put it in a bin and called bomb disposal. They sent a robot bombhandling device and it turned out to be an explosive which they said would have blown up his flat, killing him and his wife." The shock waves from such a callous crime gave weight to the daily threats which come from the club´s own fan base.

One evening this season, several allaged Firm members turned up at the swish Stockholm restaurant owned by Limpar. The ran up a bill of about £1,000, which was left unpaid, even unconsidered, as the group walked out. Chased by the Maitred´, the thugs allegedly retorted that if Limpar wanted the money, he would have to improve his perfomances and if the point was pushed, he might not even have a restaurant the next day.

Manager Baxter came into even more direct contact with people so frightening that he sent his family away to another part of the country for protection. Having drawn 1-1 against a lowly side this season, the Stockholm manager was told by the special police that five Firm members were demanding to see him. In a face-to-face confrontation with one particularly threatening individual, Baxter is understood to have argued against their threats and established an uneasy truce. Police reports confirm that the same fan with whom Baxter shared the stand-off then left the stadium, went to The Firm´s local bar near the stadium and shot someone in the knee for a £200 drug debt.

Gradually, the local police are trying to stem this tide of violence but, in the meantime, the club captain has been stopped in the city centre and told that his play had better shape up because "we know where your children go to school".

Baxter has AIK three points clear at the top of the league with only three games left. He is also a close confudant of Arsene Wenger with whom he swaps coaching expertise in a relationship wich was founded during their time in Japanese football. Baxter is at the cutting edge of fitness training and is respected throughout the European game. It is ironic that he should land in this situation after his last posting found him in the Japanese city of Kobe, where he avoided the earthquake which killed 6.000 people only because he was scouting for players in Portugal. He is the man who persuaded Micheal Laudrup to play in Japan and has already turned down offers from Sampdoria, Bordeaux and Paris Saint-Germain to apply his magic touch. Interestingly. he chose Sweden for its quality of life. Somehow his street savvy, his mixture of bullishness and quick brain, has formed a truce of sorts with the Firm. The truce is based on results which has taken AIK to the top of the league, no surprise given that Baxter has won titles in a handful of countries, including Japan, where he took the J.Legue crown with Sanfrecce Hiroshima.

But the respect Baxter carries, after a number of death threats and aggressive promises about his family, is most firmly traced to an incident after defeat in his first Stockholm derby against Hammarby. The club insider recalled: "The Firm incited the crowd to riot and burst onto the pitch while they went around the stadium to try to break in and fight the Hammarby supporters. The AIK players had been warming down but when the fans stormed the pitch, the all sprinted for the dressing room. Baxter ran the other way and tried, single- handedly, to force the fans back by demanding what the hell they thought they were doing." Now the stadium carries banners stating that the fans are "Baxter´s bodyguards", showing how fickle the thugs can be.

Hedman knows the type and remembers running with their like from his earliest days at AIK. He said: "I still see them when I go back, hanging around the stairs of a nightclub trying to make a "rumble". They´ve never escaped the same old mantality"

It is a mentality which makes AIK Stockholm probably the most dangerous European club to play or work for.

 

[Shizuoka Dolphin]

Crowd trouble is everything to do with the society at large and little to do with the stewarding. Why else am I able to go to football every week with a big bag of beer (that I can take in with me) surrounded by people with twelve foot long poles for their flags, and who stand and jump around for ninety minutes with zero interference from the police or stewards? I can count on one hand the instances of disorder I've seen in over five years.

If Sweden has got theses problems then it won't fix it no matter how many goons in yellow coats it throws at it, nor does it mean the same thing would happen in the UK theses days regardless of the steward situation.

In fact I struggle to see what any of this has to do with football in England and or in Brighton.

 

[brunswick]

can anyone attest for how Italian culture affects or causes this behavior?

i would say it is because the males are treated like little boys until the age of 30 by their mothers (some all their lives)....so then when they get together they want to 'feel' like big men, and feel like Roman gladiators.

 

[Garage_Doors]

meanwhile, just short of 25,000 fans stand with no problems on dortmunds yellow wall

Think you have missed the point, standing is no problem, and never was for many decades, buts it been discovered that it is no longer safe.
In the same way dustman used to carry dustbins on their shoulders, and builders carried 50 kgs bags of cement and everybody used to smoke.
It was done for a long time before we evolved and understood the dangers and became more educated.

 

[Barrel of Fun]

Smoking kills. Carrying heavy weights incorrectly screws up your back. What are the dangers of standing at football, PS?

 

[sten_super]

Think you have missed the point, standing is no problem, and never was for many decades, buts it been discovered that it is no longer safe.
In the same way dustman used to carry dustbins on their shoulders, and builders carried 50 kgs bags of cement and everybody used to smoke.
It was done for a long time before we evolved and understood the dangers and became more educated.

Surely this is a wind up?

 

[NMH]

Not really sure what you are trying to say with this thread. That things are "bad" in Sweden or that we would see similar scenes at falmer if circumstances are the same? Maybe both..?

Anyways, glad you enjoy a bit of Swedish football. Bummer that your reading glasses broke (no pun intended......). Aik fans will always be the same. Google a daily mail article about aik from about 10 years ago. Should shed some light on the *****.

4 5

Gothenburg & brighton loyal

I hadn't posted this thread trying to 'say' anything about UK crowds, it wouldn't apply nowadays and I would especially not think about Albion crowds in comparison. Even 35 years ago Brighton didn't have a situation like there is here! Perhaps the likes of Millwall and Chelsea did though - aside from the incendiaries maybe. Now thinking about England and our repute abroad, then yes I do think there have been parallels actually.

The paranoia of 'certain' posters on this board regarding anything a 'known steward' might document from a football related source is rather over the top and approaching sickness in my opinion. It's big enough news here in Sweden, and some might be interested - every thread on here isn't 100% BHA all the time so I don't see as this needs special permission - it's not about my proximity to Hove or how my neighbourhood has the best shops

To brunswick; there also exists in society here a feeling of sensitivity towards disciplining children. Basically it's a seen as a crime to physically admonish kids in any way.... but perhaps physical discipline IS a sign that communication with a child is failing when a parent uses a slap or a cane (?). Because it's this way across the board, kids at teen age will claim that their parents can have no say over their behavior. I know a parent whose child has just fallen foul of the law and is being looked at by social services because she thinks it's her way or the highway. Anyone who has / has had a teenager will probably relate to that issue.

Where this social standard is its' effect on their game, the laws have to change to allow clubs to place requirements on the attendees. No more of this "no personal questions to buy a ticket", or CCTV cameras overseeing crowd behavior! Police are looking at photo and video evidence so there will be fans who can be identified by them in future.

If UEFA get tough about this situation, there will be no choice - they are the final say in whether matches are attended by supporters at all, and if it continues over to the international scene I fear for Sweden's imminent international future with the game.

 

[bhaexpress]

To say that there will never be crowd trouble at The Amex is a bit of a false hope. We all know that certain elements even now still use football as a vehicle for their nasty little violent agendas and however hard the authorities try to prevent it I'm afraid to say that at some point it will happen.

 

[Brovion]

Think you have missed the point, standing is no problem, and never was for many decades, buts it been discovered that it is no longer safe.
In the same way dustman used to carry dustbins on their shoulders, and builders carried 50 kgs bags of cement and everybody used to smoke.
It was done for a long time before we evolved and understood the dangers and became more educated.

He hasn't missed the point at all. What he's saying is that standing up to watch football is NOT dangerous per se, it depends on the environment. Sitting down to watch football can also be dangerous - ask the survivors of the Bradford fire.

How can you possibly say that standing up is 'no longer safe'? You're being wilfully ignorant of the experience of other countries, as the evidence in this thread demonstrates. Fortunately most of us haven't been brainwashed by the authorities, but stick with us and we'll try and de-program you!

 

[NMH]

Think you have missed the point, standing is no problem, and never was for many decades, buts it been discovered that it is no longer safe.
In the same way dustman used to carry dustbins on their shoulders, and builders carried 50 kgs bags of cement and everybody used to smoke.
It was done for a long time before we evolved and understood the dangers and became more educated.

Routine standing (if you are seriously saying it's classed as unsafe) I have not seen become an issue in grounds that have it.
In working up at Carlisle, I saw no issues with their standing on terraces very similar to our old Goldstone North Stand, and in front of the old West Stand there. It was covered, had those poles that prevent mass surging forwards, and wasn't too radically sloped or high. They just won't be able to get promoted and keep things as they are nto the Championship though.

Withdean is a bit of a different place altogether, with our stands - actually the North and away end are the only areas that could be deemed safe for standing, even at a club like CUFC. IF standing had been allowed at Amex Stadium, then I can't say I would personally think of it as a problem - I'm a Goldstone North Stander and was happy to sit at half-time, then stand for the match, no problem.

 

[Commander]

Well done, you can join Commander in taking the fine print personally.

I really don't get you, NMH.

How can I possibly have taken an account by you about trouble at Swedish football personally? You talk about the fine print where you said "anyone who refutes this is a twat" but nobody has refuted it. We just don't understand the relevance of it. You've tried to backtrack by saying that everything non-Albion related can be seen as irrelevant and that you were just posting an account of what you saw at the weekend, but your "Okay so it's wonderful to have personal choices and complete freedom" and "But still, they get to stand and there's definitely an atmosphere" comments give away the fact that you are trying to make a point.

But still, 3 pages later, I'm not sure anyone knows what the point is that you are trying to make.

So what is it?

 

[Commander]

Think you have missed the point, standing is no problem, and never was for many decades, buts it been discovered that it is no longer safe.
In the same way dustman used to carry dustbins on their shoulders, and builders carried 50 kgs bags of cement and everybody used to smoke.
It was done for a long time before we evolved and understood the dangers and became more educated.

I just cannot believe that is real.

But, assuming it is, you are telling us that we have become more educated and now know that standing is not safe? Do you mean that you have been told by the authorities that standing is not safe? We were told by the authorities that Saddam Hussein was about to nuke us!

I cant actually believe I am still responding because I don't think you are serious, but it is early and I am hungover so I will carry on anyway.

Why is it safe to stand at Rugby League but not at football?
Why is it safe to stand in Germany but not in England?
Why is it safe to stand at concerts but not at football?
Why is it safe to stand on a terrace in Peterborough that holds 2500, but not at one in Germany that is made up of 10 terraces, each holding 2500 each with seperate entrances and restrictions in place to stop each section holding more than the capacity?

 

[Scotty Mac]

Think you have missed the point, standing is no problem, and never was for many decades, buts it been discovered that it is no longer safe.
In the same way dustman used to carry dustbins on their shoulders, and builders carried 50 kgs bags of cement and everybody used to smoke.
It was done for a long time before we evolved and understood the dangers and became more educated.

brilliant

 

[Brovion]

I just cannot believe that is real.

But, assuming it is, you are telling us that we have become more educated and now know that standing is not safe? Do you mean that you have been told by the authorities that standing is not safe? We were told by the authorities that Saddam Hussein was about to nuke us!

I cant actually believe I am still responding because I don't think you are serious, but it is early and I am hungover so I will carry on anyway.

Why is it safe to stand at Rugby League but not at football?
Why is it safe to stand in Germany but not in England?
Why is it safe to stand at concerts but not at football?
Why is it safe to stand on a terrace in Peterborough that holds 2500, but not at one in Germany that is made up of 10 terraces, each holding 2500 each with seperate entrances and restrictions in place to stop each section holding more than the capacity?

Spot on Commander (as usual!) Unless of course 'Programme Seller' was on a wind-up and was parodying the Health and Safety culture in which case, yes, I fell for it as well!

 

[NMH]

I really don't get you, NMH.

How can I possibly have taken an account by you about trouble at Swedish football personally? You talk about the fine print where you said "anyone who refutes this is a twat" but nobody has refuted it. We just don't understand the relevance of it. You've tried to backtrack by saying that everything non-Albion related can be seen as irrelevant and that you were just posting an account of what you saw at the weekend, but your "Okay so it's wonderful to have personal choices and complete freedom" and "But still, they get to stand and there's definitely an atmosphere" comments give away the fact that you are trying to make a point.

But still, 3 pages later, I'm not sure anyone knows what the point is that you are trying to make.

So what is it?

You read between the lines, so you figure whatever the 'point' is yourself, have fun and don't bother telling me what you find out.
The fine print said not do bother doing that, so I'll waste no more time. It's been real, and if you are that confused and have to keep posting questionnaires - I can't be bothered.

A snake that ties itself in a knot, isn't going to get any further just by being told it's got knotted.

Time better spent would be to discuss your point about standing, which is one that incidentally we are in agreement on.