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[Football] The PL - what’s the point?



drew

Drew
NSC Patron
Oct 3, 2006
23,612
Burgess Hill
Interesting. I would say though, that even if a small band of clubs; in particular Liverpool were dominant, they weren’t winning leagues with 90-100 points per season.

The old adage of win at home and draw away would more often than not win you the title.

2 points a game used to be enough now it’s 2.5. That for me is the worrying thing and a sign of an uncompetitive league.

78/79 Liverpool won the league conceding only 16 goals and winning 30 out of 42 games (drawing 8 and losing 4).
18/19 finished 2nd winning 30 and drawing 7
19/20 finished 1st winning 32 and drawing 3
20/21 finished 3rd winning 20 and drawing 9


Not too much difference!
 




Springal

Well-known member
Feb 12, 2005
24,782
GOSBTS
To be fair this deal works out less than the Grealish deal (transfer fee, wages, agent fees etc)

They’ve just paid £61M for a player they could easily sell for double in a few years
 
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DJ NOBO

Well-known member
Jul 18, 2004
6,816
Wiltshire
Footballers seem to get singled out for this more than anyone else. Hollywood actors get paid crazy sums but it doesn’t seem to get the same attention. All the owners of Premier League clubs (including Tony Bloom) have earned more than footballers ever will. Why is the focus on footballers?

Indeed.
Football is a huge huge industry.
Haalland is one of the very top performers.
Of course he gets well paid.
In common with everyone at the top of every massive global business.
 


crodonilson

He/Him
Jan 17, 2005
14,062
Lyme Regis
It is worth remembering that whilst the amounts are obscene over £10m of the £21m annual salary would be paid in tax.
 


Bold Seagull

strong and stable with me, or...
Mar 18, 2010
30,464
Hove
Interesting. I would say though, that even if a small band of clubs; in particular Liverpool were dominant, they weren’t winning leagues with 90-100 points per season.

The old adage of win at home and draw away would more often than not win you the title.

2 points a game used to be enough now it’s 2.5. That for me is the worrying thing and a sign of an uncompetitive league.

3 points for a win only came in 1981 didn't it? I haven't really looked at how that translates to passed tables. In 1978 Forest only lost 3 of a 42 game season. They won it on 2.1 pts per game, so 81 points in a 38 game season - same as Leicester in 2016.
 




wellquickwoody

Many More Voting Years
NSC Patron
Aug 10, 2007
13,911
Melbourne
Good post.

It is indeed the way of the world, however, I can't help but think that there is a better way that would produce healthier clubs, and a better, more interesting and more competitive competition. FWIW, I think that they do it quite well over here in Australia with Aussie Rules (14 winners in the premier League years - out of 18 clubs). It's not perfect but it is more competitive.

What concerns me is that there seems to be a fair number of posters who feel like this shouldn't even be discussed (or grumbled about).

To be fair though, things are very unlikely to change with the power residing with the big clubs with the most money. Best not to think too much about it and just enjoy the football.

I have to agree that AFL is far more competitive, but it is only so as it is so controlled, ‘the draft’, a maximum wage etc.. As you well know, a team/club can literally be moved hundreds of miles to another city to try to and generate more interest in that geographical area, leaving previously local fans with the choice of not watching their team or having ridiculous journeys to continue watching.

The control seemingly goes so far as to discourage the use of geographical names in favour of nicknames: The Pies, Bulldogs, Cats, Tigers, Hawks etc etc., making it so much easier to move a club without renaming it.
 


BadFish

Huge Member
Oct 19, 2003
18,201
I have to agree that AFL is far more competitive, but it is only so as it is so controlled, ‘the draft’, a maximum wage etc.. As you well know, a team/club can literally be moved hundreds of miles to another city to try to and generate more interest in that geographical area, leaving previously local fans with the choice of not watching their team or having ridiculous journeys to continue watching.

The control seemingly goes so far as to discourage the use of geographical names in favour of nicknames: The Pies, Bulldogs, Cats, Tigers, Hawks etc etc., making it so much easier to move a club without renaming it.
A long way from perfect I agree, there are certainly some things we can learn from the system though.

Not that there is enough interest in such drastic changes to the model though.

Sent from my M2010J19CG using Tapatalk
 


Hamilton

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 7, 2003
12,953
Brighton
Interestingly, of the 29 years of the PL we have the following winners:

Arsenal
Blackburn
Chelsea
Leicester City
Liverpool
Manchester United
Manchester City

The 29 previous seasons of Div 1 champions:

Arsenal
Aston Villa
Derby
Everton
Leeds
Liverpool
Manchester United
Manchester City
Nottingham Forest

I've highlighted the teams that don't appear in the other list.

Everton or Leeds pre-Premier League are pretty much the equivalent of Chelsea. Leicester and Blackburn 1 off winners similar to Derby(x2) and Forest.

In terms of competitiveness, in my youth Liverpool either won it, or just missed out to someone. From the year of my birth '74, they won 10 of the 18 available titles, finishing runners-up 6 times. For 20 years it felt like single team dominance and only occasional slips by them such as Arsenal winning it on the final game 1989 allowed someone else in.

MU then mirrored that dominance in the first 20 years of the PL, winning 13, runners-up 5 times. Almost like for like in a way.

In the last 10 years we have actually had 5 different winners - which even if you trace back into the football league is unusual, I think you have to go back to 1970 where we had 5 different winners in 5 consecutive seasons before it settled down into Liverpool's dominance.

Money has always talked in football, just the scale of it now is much greater than back in the day.

I loved this table, so I thought I'd do one of my own. I went and looked at every team who had placed in the top 3 since 1971/72. What's interesting is Man City's rise. Nine of their top 3 placings have happened in the last 10 years.

It's still only 23 teams spread across 150 possible places.

Liverpool – 30 appearances in the top 3
Manchester United – 30 appearances in the top 3
Arsenal – 18
Chelsea – 14
Manchester City – 10
Nottingham Forest – 6
Tottenham – 6
Ipswich – 5
Leeds United – 5
Everton – 4
Newcastle – 4
Aston Villa – 3
Derby County – 3
Blackburn – 2
Crystal Palace – 1
Leicester City – 1
Norwich – 1
QPR – 1
Sheffield Wednesday – 1
Southampton – 1
Watford – 1
West Brom – 1
West Ham – 1
 




Bozza

You can change this
Helpful Moderator
Jul 4, 2003
57,289
Back in Sussex
A long way from perfect I agree, there are certainly some things we can learn from the system though.

Not that there is enough interest in such drastic changes to the model though.

The key difference between the AFL and, similarly, the major US sports is that to all intents and purposes the entire world of that sport exists inside one country/league.

The Premier League, in isolation, can't really impose the kind of controls you've mentioned because of other competing leagues in other countries.

So, from there, you may look at UEFA-wide controls but, even then, you may introduce the prospect of losing a competitive edge to the US, the Far East (are China still paying silly money?) and the Middle East.
 


BadFish

Huge Member
Oct 19, 2003
18,201
The key difference between the AFL and, similarly, the major US sports is that to all intents and purposes the entire world of that sport exists inside one country/league.

The Premier League, in isolation, can't really impose the kind of controls you've mentioned because of other competing leagues in other countries.

So, from there, you may look at UEFA-wide controls but, even then, you may introduce the prospect of losing a competitive edge to the US, the Far East (are China still paying silly money?) and the Middle East.
Absolutely, the only way to make any changes is through FIFA. Of course, for many reasons changes are not going to be made any time soon.

I guess the discussion is being had and moves are being made to combat the problems in football. I guess we see what these new changes are going to do.

Sent from my M2010J19CG using Tapatalk
 


wellquickwoody

Many More Voting Years
NSC Patron
Aug 10, 2007
13,911
Melbourne
The key difference between the AFL and, similarly, the major US sports is that to all intents and purposes the entire world of that sport exists inside one country/league.

The Premier League, in isolation, can't really impose the kind of controls you've mentioned because of other competing leagues in other countries.

So, from there, you may look at UEFA-wide controls but, even then, you may introduce the prospect of losing a competitive edge to the US, the Far East (are China still paying silly money?) and the Middle East.

Absolutely agree with you here. Aussie Rules is so heavily marketed here but it is of no consequence anywhere outside of Australia, it is very much a Victoria state product and proudly wears its heart on its sleeve. Once you get up to NSW and especially Queensland then Rugby league takes over. AFL loves to promote how universally popular it is, playing at least a couple of games every weekend at the MCG to crowds of 50/60/70k, but what they don’t include in the marketing is that when you get one of the smaller teams like North Melbourne playing Adelaide then crowds maybe no bigger than smaller Championship game. What I have to bear in mind is that AUS has a population of around 25 million so in proportionate terms they really are big crowds, but Melbourne in particular is sports nuts.
 




Wardy's twin

Well-known member
Oct 21, 2014
8,867
I don't think what's happening in football is any different to what happens elsewhere , wealth is concentrated in the hands of the few.

I am more worried by what has happened in the property market where we have super wealthy property developers driving prices so that people cannot afford a property (yes i know its not the only reason but it is a major contributor)
 


Bold Seagull

strong and stable with me, or...
Mar 18, 2010
30,464
Hove
I loved this table, so I thought I'd do one of my own. I went and looked at every team who had placed in the top 3 since 1971/72. What's interesting is Man City's rise. Nine of their top 3 placings have happened in the last 10 years.

It's still only 23 teams spread across 150 possible places.

Liverpool – 30 appearances in the top 3
Manchester United – 30 appearances in the top 3
Arsenal – 18
Chelsea – 14
Manchester City – 10
Nottingham Forest – 6
Tottenham – 6
Ipswich – 5
Leeds United – 5
Everton – 4
Newcastle – 4
Aston Villa – 3
Derby County – 3
Blackburn – 2
Crystal Palace – 1
Leicester City – 1
Norwich – 1
QPR – 1
Sheffield Wednesday – 1
Southampton – 1
Watford – 1
West Brom – 1
West Ham – 1

Champions League riches changed a lot. Once you have a run in that top 4, your income can sustain continued success. Pre Champions League you either won the league or won the European Cup to enter the following season.

I'm assuming some of those like Norwich were PL era rather than before.
 


Hamilton

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 7, 2003
12,953
Brighton
Champions League riches changed a lot. Once you have a run in that top 4, your income can sustain continued success. Pre Champions League you either won the league or won the European Cup to enter the following season.

I'm assuming some of those like Norwich were PL era rather than before.

Norwich finished 3rd in 1992 and so competed in the UEFA cup in 1993.

And the Champions League riches must make a difference, as in the last 20 years only two teams outside of the so called Big 6 have managed to finish in the top 3 - Leicester in 2015/16 and Newcastle in 2002/03.

That means that the other 15 teams who have finished in the top 3 (outside the Big 6, plus Leicester and Newcastle) all achieved this feat in the last century.
 




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