The Obese, Drunks and Junkies

[algie]

one of my good mates in England, recently,after battling to pay off a credit card bill ,decided to go bankrupt.......two failed marriages and being rinsed out by two different bitches and sets of kids hasn't helped , but he has always paid his way as best he could , the cc issue came about after he hurt himself at work and ended up in hospital for six weeks and off work for nearly 6 months , unable to keep up the cc payments it all snowballed into almost 20 G worth of debt. the bankruptcy was granted and he slowly got back on his feet and back to work............then last week the bailiffs turned up unannounced and took his 1998 vauxhall van away with all his tools in it , he asked them what would be done with it and they said it would probably end up getting scrapped,he is now totally f***ed and because he has no car he doesn't get his job seeker allowance either. he has worked hard all his life and paid his fair share of taxes , i spoke to him on monday and he is completely depressed ............that scenario just seems totally LUDICROUS to me.

Been through it all myself with bailiffs/bankruptcy etc.

Two things that stood out for me is that they cannot turn up without notice. The other is taking your van and tools.

Bailiffs: What they are entitled to do and your rights

 

[bhaexpress]

Are loose benefits not very tight ones? In all seriousness there are jobs available to all sections of society, however its the willingness of employers and employees to diversify or re-train that is fundamental to the point.

Where ? You are a typical clueless tory so you have no idea, all smoke and mirrors.

 

[bhaexpress]

Sorry but if you stick it up your nose, inject it in your veins or shove it down your throat, I don't want to pay for you when you can't get by anymore. Very harsh but very true. I try and look after myself and I have a heck of a lot of issues that I manage to deal with, without social care, so why can't they.

People may ask what they could do to get back to work, maybe they should be asking why previous governments thought it was appropriate to pay for them to feed their habits through dishing out benefits instead of spending the money to help rehabilitate them. The press are focusing on the taking away of benefits not the spending to get them back to work.

Good work DC, in my view this is a tough call but the right one.

I don't dispute this but you simply can't stop being a drug addict or an alcoholic, it doesn't work like that. I tell you one way of creating jobs though, stop letting Australians and New Zealanders having work visas here, I wouldn't mind except this ancient facility is not reciprocated and I cannot understand why it is antipodeans can take jobs here. I know that in my own profession there are a lot working here as they make a lot more money than they would at home.

 

[kingcole]

Kill their benefits after 6 weeks. I am sure you will see them all finding work then.

 

[tedebear]

I don't dispute this but you simply can't stop being a drug addict or an alcoholic, it doesn't work like that. I tell you one way of creating jobs though, stop letting Australians and New Zealanders having work visas here, I wouldn't mind except this ancient facility is not reciprocated and I cannot understand why it is antipodeans can take jobs here. I know that in my own profession there are a lot working here as they make a lot more money than they would at home.

No but as I said lets not spend the money on benefits for them but spend the money getting them off their addiction and back to work.

Not sure how immigration is related to this but I'm sure the impact of EU workers is far greater than the odd Australian on a working holiday.

 

[bhaexpress]

No but as I said lets not spend the money on benefits for them but spend the money getting them off their addiction and back to work.

Not sure how immigration is related to this but I'm sure the impact of EU workers is far greater than the odd Australian on a working holiday.

Two things, firstly until there is sufficient funding for addicts of all strains nothing will change, it's a speculate to accumulate situation. As far as immigration goes (after all the aim is to get people working) whilst a person with an EU passport can work here we in turn can work in their country, is is an option. However the same does not apply to Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Zimbabwe or Nigeria and yet their citizens can work here quite legally. Time to rationalise our Commonwealth connections. One thing that quite amazes me is that I a Canadian relative who is a qualified teacher, she's working here as she can't get a job in her own country. I wonder just how many people from Commonwealth countries can do likewise ?

It's worth mentioning that a 'working holiday' can last up to four years.

 

[Prettyboyshaw]

The question for all the lefty limp wrtisted liberals should be why is is fair that people work to support others who clearly should be working in an equal society that they strive for? Why should we go to work whilst others don't have that stress and instead get up when they want and do what they want all day whilst still having the norms like a car, fags, booze, sky tv and gamble (should be made to pay back every benefit they have ever had when the f***ing win lottery amounts) etc

Unless they are seriously ill all should be in jobs (tough shit if its only just better than being on the social) or doing community work.

They should have work stations where you can go with your tax bill as proof you pay it and pick up some people to do job like your garden or painting or cleaning your car. After all paying tax means you are paying their wages/benefits.

That is a more fair equal society.

 

[bhaexpress]

The question for all the lefty limp wrtisted liberals should be why is is fair that people work to support others who clearly should be working in an equal society that they strive for? Why should we go to work whilst others don't have that stress and instead get up when they want and do what they want all day whilst still having the norms like a car, fags, booze, sky tv and gamble (should be made to pay back every benefit they have ever had when the f***ing win lottery amounts) etc

Unless they are seriously ill all should be in jobs (tough shit if its only just better than being on the social) or doing community work.

They should have work stations where you can go with your tax bill as proof you pay it and pick up some people to do job like your garden or painting or cleaning your car. After all paying tax means you are paying their wages/benefits.

That is a more fair equal society.

That's a fairly typical response from somebody who doesn't have much idea. Nobody agrees more than me that people should get a free ride but tell me, what would you do for a living if you lost your job ? Clean cars ? Wash dishes ? One of the drawbacks which is something all administrations miss is that people won't work when it puts them out of pocket. Suppose companies were 'encouraged' to have pre school facilities ? What about more realistic training programs ? I wasted a year getting an HNC which has served no real purpose. I could have done an MCSE in a fraction of that time and a fraction of the cost but no government is prepared to give money directly to Microsoft despite the fact they themselves extensively use their products.

Retraining in this country is a joke, we get what the government thinks we need and not what commerce needs. It's happy to get people to university even if the student never gets a job using their degree. As long as they pay back what their education costs. Of course whilst they are in full time they are not unemployed so that will massage the figures.

The same thing applies though, people like you speak this hyperbole but as I say, jobs just aren't as plentiful as a lot of people seem to think.

 

[cunning fergus]

[ As far as immigration goes (after all the aim is to get people working) whilst a person with an EU passport can work here we in turn can work in their country, is is an option. QUOTE]

The aim of the UK Govt is surely to get UK citizens working...........they are after all the ones who vote.

This week Miliband confirmed that approx. 2.2m migrants arrived in the UK only slightly above the 15k we were told would arrive in 2004 (little wonder the finances of this country were shot to pieces when people like Byrne were opertaing the levers of power).

Not that he made any mention on the impact on social services/wages/job prospects for UK citizens with these numbers of hard working honest folk rock up in the UK?

But its all OK isnt it, because we can go abroad and throw ourselves into the job markets of Warsaw, Budapest and Riga. I guess there must be plenty of vacancies.

Gee, I am feeling so much more optimistic.

 

[British Bulldog]

I think he is trying to do the right thing, but doing it in the wrong way. 99% of these people need a lot more than just being kicked back to work. I used to be one of those that thought that most claimants were shirkers, but since my disability, I have changed my view somewhat. A lot of illness can't be seen, but can be just as debilitating as physical conditions. But we could talk forever on that and if you have never gone through it, you just wouldn't understand.

One thing that does need a lot of work, are the medical interview themselves. I had my application for disability Living Allowance turned down (quite common apparently) The guy who did my assessment had said I was fit for work. Both my GP and my consultants were gobsmaked, as I cannot walk for more that ten yards without either falling or being in extreme pain. Because I couldn't work any more I felt useless as both a father of three and a wife. I became very depressed and attempted to take my own life. I was then diagnosed with clinical depression. Sorry I'm rambling. Any way the upshot was that I went to a tribunal and got full DLA.
I am not looking for sympathy, I just thought that telling you my circumstances, will show how inept these assessments can be really.

Sorry to see you've got those problems but I can sympathise with you as i'm pretty much in the same situation as for several years my health has been in decline to the point where I can barely walk now and every day is a battle with cronic pain, Like you my doctor is concerned about depression but i'm still in denial about that one as I dont want to go down that road if I can help it but being in this situation does make you feel useless and a let down which is hard to shake off. I've reached the point now where being able to work is out of the question so consequently I've been given my notice at work and will be losing my job the day after my 50th birthday with very little prospect of ever being fit enough to work again. As far as benefits are concerned other than the DLA mobility payment that I do get i'm not even going to bother applying for anything else, I'll just take whatever I can get out of my private pension and try and scrape through on that because there's no way I'm spending the next 15 years trying to justify myself to some form filler when I know my body better than anyone.

Appologies for not adding anything to the overall topic but I was just trying to let you know your not suffering alone

 

[bhaexpress]

[ As far as immigration goes (after all the aim is to get people working) whilst a person with an EU passport can work here we in turn can work in their country, is is an option. QUOTE]

The aim of the UK Govt is surely to get UK citizens working...........they are after all the ones who vote.

This week Miliband confirmed that approx. 2.2m migrants arrived in the UK only slightly above the 15k we were told would arrive in 2004 (little wonder the finances of this country were shot to pieces when people like Byrne were opertaing the levers of power).

Not that he made any mention on the impact on social services/wages/job prospects for UK citizens with these numbers of hard working honest folk rock up in the UK?

But its all OK isnt it, because we can go abroad and throw ourselves into the job markets of Warsaw, Budapest and Riga. I guess there must be plenty of vacancies.

Gee, I am feeling so much more optimistic.

Couldn't agree more but to say so tends to get some people accusing you of xenophobia. There's not much doubt that many EEC passport holders come to this county as we offer better benefits. I can't say that I believe there are equally good job prospects across the European Union. I would also say that should I arrive in say Poland with no home and no money that their government would not be too inclined to help me out.I'd be quite impressed if the Polish Job Centre laid on an interpreter for me so that I could sign on, you know, just like we do here. I'm quite sure that there are a lot of long term scroungers but trying to get sick people back to work is the tip of the employment iceberg. Finding jobs for unqualified people to rubber stamp a doctor's advice seems a waste of time and money.

 

[bhaexpress]

Sorry to see you've got those problems but I can sympathise with you as i'm pretty much in the same situation as for several years my health has been in decline to the point where I can barely walk now and every day is a battle with cronic pain, Like you my doctor is concerned about depression but i'm still in denial about that one as I dont want to go down that road if I can help it but being in this situation does make you feel useless and a let down which is hard to shake off. I've reached the point now where being able to work is out of the question so consequently I've been given my notice at work and will be losing my job the day after my 50th birthday with very little prospect of ever being fit enough to work again. As far as benefits are concerned other than the DLA mobility payment that I do get i'm not even going to bother applying for anything else, I'll just take whatever I can get out of my private pension and try and scrape through on that because there's no way I'm spending the next 15 years trying to justify myself to some form filler when I know my body better than anyone.

Appologies for not adding anything to the overall topic but I was just trying to let you know your not suffering alone

You have added to the thread by pointing out another aspect of the conundrum, good luck to you, you could do with it.

 

[tedebear]

Two things, firstly until there is sufficient funding for addicts of all strains nothing will change, it's a speculate to accumulate situation. As far as immigration goes (after all the aim is to get people working) whilst a person with an EU passport can work here we in turn can work in their country, is is an option. However the same does not apply to Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Zimbabwe or Nigeria and yet their citizens can work here quite legally. Time to rationalise our Commonwealth connections. One thing that quite amazes me is that I a Canadian relative who is a qualified teacher, she's working here as she can't get a job in her own country. I wonder just how many people from Commonwealth countries can do likewise ?

It's worth mentioning that a 'working holiday' can last up to four years.

Well personally I have little sympathy re addicts, a very broad generalisation but in most cases its self inflicted and therefor I don't understand why we should allow them benefits. My views on social benefits in this country are not very socialist it must be said, but I'm sure you can tell.

Interesting your view on Commonwealth workers. You do know as I'm Australian - I'm not entitled to any benefits at all and yet I have to pay taxes and NI and thus put money into the benefit coffers even though I'm not entitled as would many of my working countrymen. But hey ho, chuck us out and give them job to one of those druggies who deserve the money becuase they can't help but shove junk in their mouths/veins.

I would like to see the numbers of commonwealth "job takers" before I'd consider it a serious issue.

 

[bhaexpress]

Well personally I have little sympathy re addicts, a very broad generalisation but in most cases its self inflicted and therefor I don't understand why we should allow them benefits. My views on social benefits in this country are not very socialist it must be said, but I'm sure you can tell.

Interesting your view on Commonwealth workers. You do know as I'm Australian - I'm not entitled to any benefits at all and yet I have to pay taxes and NI and thus put money into the benefit coffers even though I'm not entitled as would many of my working countrymen. But hey ho, chuck us out and give them job to one of those druggies who deserve the money becuase they can't help but shove junk in their mouths/veins.

I would like to see the numbers of commonwealth "job takers" before I'd consider it a serious issue.

You choose to miss the point, well done. I don't have much sympathy for addicts but you cannot simply turn an addict into a functional member of society by giving them a job. For your benefit I will reiterate, there is insufficient funding for the treatment of addicts. You have a stark choice of casting them out (and let them continue to feed their habits through crime) or try to rehabilitate them. You can see how the American benefits system (or lack there of) has helped them to the largest prison population in the known world. Of course putting them is prison might keep them off the streets but it's hardly cost effective.

As far as you not getting benefits here, okay, so how would I go about getting a 'Working Holiday' in Australia ? It's not impossible but a damn sight harder than for Australians coming here. Of course if you don't like it you're not forced to stay. You could 'go home' but for whatever reason you stay here.

The overall issue is that every administration dreams up some quick solution to long term problems. There seems to be a desire to rename benefits for example (Incapacity Benefit is now called Earnings Support Allowance), now how does renaming it change anything ? As I say paying unqualified people to rubber stamp a doctor's diagnosis seems an utter waste of money along with so many other quick fix scheme any administration comes up with. It matter not one iota whether it's a Tory. Tory/Lib Dem or Labour government as they're all as bad as each other.

 

[public school boy]

I don't know if it would work, but perhaps the government could subsidise firms that take on 'rehabilitation' employees.
The company could pay them a reduced amount for the work and allow that they may not be 100% ability-wise or energy-wise, the rest could be made up from benefits.

Thus many would be employed, confident that they can integrate, and too busy and well occupied to booze/inject/whatever.
Eventually they could be (so long as the company agrees) taken on fully by the firms if they prove compatible.
Those that do not would have regular benefits reduced.

Reading your comment, your idea of subsidising companies who employ rehabilitating employees, would be a good idea, but that person would need to be willing, physically and mentally able to work in the first place. Another idea would be that if a person takes a low paid job in order to get back into the work place the government would contribute extra.
Your suggestion that by employing a person would be too occupied to inject or take a drink is unfortunately not the case. If a person is addicted then their body/brain tells them that they need their fix what ever the circumstances might be.

 

[tedebear]

s

You choose to miss the point, well done. I don't have much sympathy for addicts but you cannot simply turn an addict into a functional member of society by giving them a job. For your benefit I will reiterate, there is insufficient funding for the treatment of addicts. You have a stark choice of casting them out (and let them continue to feed their habits through crime) or try to rehabilitate them. You can see how the American benefits system (or lack there of) has helped them to the largest prison population in the known world. Of course putting them is prison might keep them off the streets but it's hardly cost effective.

As far as you not getting benefits here, okay, so how would I go about getting a 'Working Holiday' in Australia ? It's not impossible but a damn sight harder than for Australians coming here. Of course if you don't like it you're not forced to stay. You could 'go home' but for whatever reason you stay here.

The overall issue is that every administration dreams up some quick solution to long term problems. There seems to be a desire to rename benefits for example (Incapacity Benefit is now called Earnings Support Allowance), now how does renaming it change anything ? As I say paying unqualified people to rubber stamp a doctor's diagnosis seems an utter waste of money along with so many other quick fix scheme any administration comes up with. It matter not one iota whether it's a Tory. Tory/Lib Dem or Labour government as they're all as bad as each other.

Miss the point? why the sarcasm? this was a good debate til you threw that in...

I don't see it as societies responsibility to make these people "functional" (whatever that means) members of society nor to fund their situation? I realize that a heck of a lot of people will be chucked out in the cold - and along with that a good deal of other problems can crop up, but granted not for everyone. I know of several individuals locally who have lost their benefits (which they shouldn't have had in the first place) and who have (with a good deal of struggle) managed to sort themselves out. How many people on benefits would fit that bill? Anyone wish to hazard a guess.

Where there is a genuine need for a benefit to be paid I'm all for it. I'm not happy to fund people because they are too lazy to help themselves, and that goes for the women who reproduce copiously...

Also I'm married to an Englishman - and I like it here which is why I stay.

 

[bhaexpress]

s

Miss the point? why the sarcasm? this was a good debate til you threw that in...

I don't see it as societies responsibility to make these people "functional" (whatever that means) members of society nor to fund their situation? I realize that a heck of a lot of people will be chucked out in the cold - and along with that a good deal of other problems can crop up, but granted not for everyone. I know of several individuals locally who have lost their benefits (which they shouldn't have had in the first place) and who have (with a good deal of struggle) managed to sort themselves out. How many people on benefits would fit that bill? Anyone wish to hazard a guess.

Where there is a genuine need for a benefit to be paid I'm all for it. I'm not happy to fund people because they are too lazy to help themselves, and that goes for the women who reproduce copiously...

Also I'm married to an Englishman - and I like it here which is why I stay.

Sorry but that wasn't meant to be sarcastic, I was saying that overall this business of going after addicts and the like is all very well but it's a hit and hope attempt which won't do any good as it's not an overall solution. Granted there are people who see the solution to all addicts is to round them up and put them all in a camp, away from the general public. Whilst it would drastically reduce the crime rate it will send certain elements screaming to the media about people's rights (of course no mention of the rights of many addicts' crime victims). This latest attempt by this government is just another example of spin. Whilst a great idea in theory in practice it won;t work for the reasons I have already stated. I too object to paying taxes to support somebody's habit but you can't just stop an addict or a drunk or an over eater by refusing their benefits. Hard to believe that is is many people with an addiction are quite happy to stay that way having taken to that particular lifestyle. Cutting off benefits will merely increase crime and thus up the prison population which again costs.

It's pointless trying these voter friendly ideas as the whole subject runs far deeper than the 'facts' that various politicians spout. Whatever effect these changes might make (and frankly it's very unlikely that they will) the fundermental issues have not been addressed. Granted it would take a brave government to take a radical stand and right now given the financial climate it would not be a vote winner. Chances are that any action taken would be undone by the next administration in any case.

Oh, yes I do know that you've matter a Brit and that you love taking old British cars to pieces. I merely illustrated the point about rationalising employment opportunities by addressing some of the loopholes that exist, people on a 'Working Holiday' is but one example. The fact that anybody with a valid EEC passport can come and work here is another. We do have the choice to go to other countries for work but not only are the jobs not there but more often than not neither are the welfare systems that we take for granted.

 

[Seagull Steve]

Sorry to see you've got those problems but I can sympathise with you as i'm pretty much in the same situation as for several years my health has been in decline to the point where I can barely walk now and every day is a battle with cronic pain, Like you my doctor is concerned about depression but i'm still in denial about that one as I dont want to go down that road if I can help it but being in this situation does make you feel useless and a let down which is hard to shake off. I've reached the point now where being able to work is out of the question so consequently I've been given my notice at work and will be losing my job the day after my 50th birthday with very little prospect of ever being fit enough to work again. As far as benefits are concerned other than the DLA mobility payment that I do get i'm not even going to bother applying for anything else, I'll just take whatever I can get out of my private pension and try and scrape through on that because there's no way I'm spending the next 15 years trying to justify myself to some form filler when I know my body better than anyone.

Appologies for not adding anything to the overall topic but I was just trying to let you know your not suffering alone

Thank you BB, and my sympathies to you too mate. I was 39 when I finished work, my firms personnel woman made me medically retired. I am 43 now and over most of the depression, although it's still being medicated. The form filling and assessments are nothing short of a nightmare. I hate the fact that i am tied to taking so many pills a day too. But I am very much trying to look forwards rather than back now. I have a very loving wife, who is my main carer so I am lucky in that respect. But I think my three kids have not taken it so well. My boy was 13 when I stopped being able to use my legs much, and found it hard that his dad wasn't able to kick a ball around with him like other dads.

Anyway we are going miles off topic here, and if you ever need to talk BB, you know where I am, perhaps meet up at the Amex for a beer next season if you like.

 

[bhaexpress]

Thank you BB, and my sympathies to you too mate. I was 39 when I finished work, my firms personnel woman made me medically retired. I am 43 now and over most of the depression, although it's still being medicated. The form filling and assessments are nothing short of a nightmare. I hate the fact that i am tied to taking so many pills a day too. But I am very much trying to look forwards rather than back now. I have a very loving wife, who is my main carer so I am lucky in that respect. But I think my three kids have not taken it so well. My boy was 13 when I stopped being able to use my legs much, and found it hard that his dad wasn't able to kick a ball around with him like other dads.

Anyway we are going miles off topic here, and if you ever need to talk BB, you know where I am, perhaps meet up at the Amex for a beer next season if you like.

Believe me you are not going off topic at all. People need to know about people in your position as it's very clear that a lot of them have no idea of what it's like to be in your place.

 

[Bulldog]

The question for all the lefty limp wrtisted liberals should be why is is fair that people work to support others who clearly should be working in an equal society that they strive for? Why should we go to work whilst others don't have that stress and instead get up when they want and do what they want all day whilst still having the norms like a car, fags, booze, sky tv and gamble (should be made to pay back every benefit they have ever had when the f***ing win lottery amounts) etc

I'm a leftie and i agree with most of that, benefits are to keep a roof over your head and food on the table for the family while you look for new work, not for the nice things in life, just the essentials.

Unless they are seriously ill all should be in jobs (tough shit if its only just better than being on the social) or doing community work.

Agreed, if the job pays more than the benefits i see no reason why anyone should turn it down. Many of us do jobs we don't like and even hate, but we do them.
They should have work stations where you can go with your tax bill as proof you pay it and pick up some people to do job like your garden or painting or cleaning your car. After all paying tax means you are paying their wages/benefits.

This is the bit that made me laugh, so we will punish the evil unemployed by making them huddle, sheep like, in a collection area where the angellic employed can turn up and select them to come around and do the washing up, clean the car etc. Dear oh dear, i bet you vote Tory.

That is a more fair equal society.

I just hope you never find yourself in the position so many of these honest hard working people that are becoming unemployed find themselves in. But if you do, my grass needs cutting and my work boots could do with a polish.