[Albion] The king is dead

[Easy 10]

What? Propper was phenomenal.

Unreal.

He had me tearing my hair out today. Until THAT pass that led to our goal, Propper was utter, utter junk. Every time he got the ball, he laid a 5 yard pass backwards or sideways, zero impact, taking the easy option. Never picking his head up, never actually trying to MAKE things happen. He hides.

Like I say, he got marginally back into credit with some quick feet and a hollywood ball for the goal, but up until then, he'd been rank and was intrinsic in the sloathe performance for an hour before the cavalry arrived and finally made a game of it.

I need to see a lot more from Propper. Its all well and good being neat and tidy on the ball, but all he does is the piece of piss stuff well.

 

[Saunders]

Unreal.

He had me tearing my hair out today. Until THAT pass that led to our goal, Propper was utter, utter junk. Every time he got the ball, he laid a 5 yard pass backwards or sideways, zero impact, taking the easy option. Never picking his head up, never actually trying to MAKE things happen. He hides.

Like I say, he got marginally back into credit with some quick feet and a hollywood ball for the goal, but up until then, he'd been rank and was intrinsic in the sloathe performance for an hour before the cavalry arrived and finally made a game of it.

I need to see a lot more from Propper. Its all well and good being neat and tidy on the ball, but all he does is the piece of piss stuff well.

Stephens was rank and that was far from piece of piss stuff. If Stephens pulled off a move like that then I would defend him but he could barely keep the ball and he is not as capable of keeping possession or working off the ball when we are being pressed.

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

Stephens was excellent, sorry but I don't need Danny Higginbotham to agree with me.

He wasn’t, he was really poor.

 

[Hillian1]

Funny how people see the game completely different I thought Stephens was an absolute carthorse today

You saw it correctly.

 

[Easy 10]

Thats not really what I said - its just about different roles in a team and expectations from a player. I might as well copy what I've posted on another thread...

I'm trying to work out how I watched a game and liked what I saw from Stephens and less what i saw from Propper, and yet to a man everyone on here thinks the opposite. So far I have 32 post quotes telling me I'm an idiot (edit make that 38 now )

The way I read it, every criticism of Stephens is that he gave the ball away a bit much and passed the ball sideways, and the praise for Propper is that he was tidy and moved the ball around nicely. I fully agree with both appraisals of those parts of the game, and so the crux of my different opinion is (1) that there was much more to both players games than that, and (2) they play different roles in the team.

When the opposition has the ball Propper does little but mark space but Stephens gets involved. I always value the player that gets involved, and although Stephens lost the ball a few times, he also won it or a forced a mistake on many occasions.

When we get the ball I expect Stephens to play a simple sideways pass, that's who he is and that's all I expect fro a guy who's main role is destructive. Propper I think can do so much more - and the more advanced CM SHOULD do more - and yet he was repeatedly turning today and switching it to the centrebacks., he did some nice stuff too on occasion, and his cross ball to Gross was great, but there was very little drive in his game for the most part.

Thats what I think Bissouma can do, the drive to move the ball forward, and its in Propper's role where that should be coming and leave Stephens to do the destructive stuff.


...

I fully accept I am in a tiny minority in my appraisal of todays game

I think you're bang on. Its exactly what I saw today.

 

[Easy 10]

Stephens was rank and that was far from piece of piss stuff. If Stephens pulled off a move like that then I would defend him but he could barely keep the ball and he is not as capable of keeping possession or working off the ball when we are being pressed.

Stephens was average. My focus switched to Propper because time and time again when he received the ball, he did the simple, obvious 5 yard pass. I'm not expecting him to do something special every time he receives the ball, but I'm expecting more than him (literally) passing responsibility back to Bernardo, Montoya or a centreback. Its not enough.

Now like I say, he partially redeemed himself when he finally DID stir from his 5-yard stupour and pinged a fabulous 40-yard ball out to the right that led to our goal. But its not enough. He needs to be lifting his head more often, turning TOWARDS THEIR GOAL, and looking for someone, instead of being 'neat and tidy'. I'm sure his OPTA passing stats % are right up there with the best, but bloody hell, my mum could receive it in midfield and lay it off to Balogun all afternoon.

 

[blue-shifted]

I just don't get threads like these. It's just the complete lack of nuance and perspective. The one who you think shouldn't be in the team is a carthorse, junk or is poor.

Surely the answer is that there's very little to choose quality-wise between our 4 midfielders. They will come in out of the team depending on the opposition, whether we're home and away

And we really don't need to be shipping them out. We're in mid-table. They've got us this far and they're good players.

I'd go with Propper and Bissouma at the moment. But it's a marginal selection

 

[supaseagull]

Excuse me?

He was excellent today. Its Propper thats got to be benched, same as Stephens with the ball, but offers a fraction of Stephens when we don't

What game were you watching


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[blockhseagull]

Stephens was average. My focus switched to Propper because time and time again when he received the ball, he did the simple, obvious 5 yard pass. I'm not expecting him to do something special every time he receives the ball, but I'm expecting more than him (literally) passing responsibility back to Bernardo, Montoya or a centreback. Its not enough.

Now like I say, he partially redeemed himself when he finally DID stir from his 5-yard stupour and pinged a fabulous 40-yard ball out to the right that led to our goal. But its not enough. He needs to be lifting his head more often, turning TOWARDS THEIR GOAL, and looking for someone, instead of being 'neat and tidy'. I'm sure his OPTA passing stats % are right up there with the best, but bloody hell, my mum could receive it in midfield and lay it off to Balogun all afternoon.

That said

He needs someone to actually move to pass the ball to.... Movement for the first 60 mins was absolutely non existent so makes Propper’s job a little harder.

 

[LamieRobertson]

Hmm...what team were we playing today

 

[Surrey Phil]

I thought Stephens was ok today but ultimately he is too slow in thought and actions and too often goes sideways or backwards when we are on the attack. Yves simply must start with Dutch Dave as they are the future.

 

[Bwian]

I’m in the Stephens was poor today camp. However, been out for 3 games and Chelski were very good. All of our players were struggling for time and space so probably best not to judge too harshly today

It's not just this game today. Stephens is simply not good enough at this level and contrary to the song: he always gives the ball away and when he isn't he goes backwards or sideways.

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[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

It's great to see the fans having team selection problems, as well as CH!

It's good isn't it? We've basically achieved the dream we(or at least I) had when we were losing the goldstone and homeless for donkeys years. Top flight football where the only problems are which quality players to select.

And the debate is about quality players even if plenty of people seem to only be able to be positive about a player by being negative about another. We're lucky to have Stephens, Bissouma and Propper vying for positions in the starting line up.

Stephens has been an excellent and integral part of our team for the past 3 seasons. He's also not having a particularly sterling season this year. Doesn't mean he's shit. Propper was excellent last season. He too has been less good this year but possesses a lot of quality. Bissouma is raw but looks to have huge talent, he certainly has a more dynamic style of play than either Stephens or Propper.

I think we are moving into a period where we are going to have far greater tactical and line up flexibility. The new players are all beginning to settle in(with the possible exception of ALi J but I'm sure he'll come good given time) and all bring something new and different to the team. As such they're going to get more and more game time which inevitably means other players dropping out of the team. It also means we can adapt our tactics and personnel far more depending on each individual game.

None of that means that players who don't make the team are shit. Just that their particular qualities don't fit that days game plan. In previous seasons we've all been able to name our strongest starting 11(give or take one maybe two players). I reckon by the end of the season we won't be able to. Excitin times!

 

[Sussex Nomad]

Well, there's the fouls he means, and the fouls he doesn't mean... yes there's more of the second kind against players like Hazard

If his name was Marcus Alonso he'd get away with anything.

 

[mreprice]

4 1 4 1 with Stephens holding and Propper and Bissouma in the middle could be quite exciting. Propper has an eye for a pass going forward.

 

[Nixonator]

Thats not really what I said - its just about different roles in a team and expectations from a player. I might as well copy what I've posted on another thread...

I'm trying to work out how I watched a game and liked what I saw from Stephens and less what i saw from Propper, and yet to a man everyone on here thinks the opposite. So far I have 32 post quotes telling me I'm an idiot (edit make that 38 now )

The way I read it, every criticism of Stephens is that he gave the ball away a bit much and passed the ball sideways, and the praise for Propper is that he was tidy and moved the ball around nicely. I fully agree with both appraisals of those parts of the game, and so the crux of my different opinion is (1) that there was much more to both players games than that, and (2) they play different roles in the team.

When the opposition has the ball Propper does little but mark space but Stephens gets involved. I always value the player that gets involved, and although Stephens lost the ball a few times, he also won it or a forced a mistake on many occasions.

When we get the ball I expect Stephens to play a simple sideways pass, that's who he is and that's all I expect fro a guy who's main role is destructive. Propper I think can do so much more - and the more advanced CM SHOULD do more - and yet he was repeatedly turning today and switching it to the centrebacks., he did some nice stuff too on occasion, and his cross ball to Gross was great, but there was very little drive in his game for the most part.

Thats what I think Bissouma can do, the drive to move the ball forward, and its in Propper's role where that should be coming and leave Stephens to do the destructive stuff.


...

I fully accept I am in a tiny minority in my appraisal of todays game

You are not alone. I'm guessing from your location you aren't around albion fans as much as some of us. The really thick ones have never seen the merits of Stephens, and he gets no love because of his Burnley incident. You literally have a pack of these cretins just waiting to pounce and pounce they have as his reintegration into the team results in an inevitable loss vs a side on the back of putting Man City to the sword. You will see plenty of regurgitated fallacies implying he can only pass the ball sideways or backwards, when the actual stats patently dictate otherwise, particularly striking when compared to his midfield competition.

Propper on the other hand is a new player, cost some (relatively) big bucks, is a Dutch international and very occasionally plays a 5 yard pass with the outside of his foot which is deemed to be phenominal technical skill. He has a good pass in him don't get me wrong, but so does Stephens and Dale packs a hell of alot more bite. Both are quite slow, on balance I'd have Stephens every time alongside Bissouma but depends on who we are playing.

Stephens did ok today for his first game back, a couple of vital interceptions and tackles from what I recall. Propper was absolutely abysmal from a player, as you say, who is expected to do more. Hope this goes some way in explaining why a majority on here see it the other way round.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Stephens was average. My focus switched to Propper because time and time again when he received the ball, he did the simple, obvious 5 yard pass. I'm not expecting him to do something special every time he receives the ball, but I'm expecting more than him (literally) passing responsibility back to Bernardo, Montoya or a centreback. Its not enough.

Now like I say, he partially redeemed himself when he finally DID stir from his 5-yard stupour and pinged a fabulous 40-yard ball out to the right that led to our goal. But its not enough. He needs to be lifting his head more often, turning TOWARDS THEIR GOAL, and looking for someone, instead of being 'neat and tidy'. I'm sure his OPTA passing stats % are right up there with the best, but bloody hell, my mum could receive it in midfield and lay it off to Balogun all afternoon.

You are not alone. I'm guessing from your location you aren't around albion fans as much as some of us. The really thick ones have never seen the merits of Stephens, and he gets no love because of his Burnley incident. You literally have a pack of these cretins just waiting to pounce and pounce they have as his reintegration into the team results in an inevitable loss vs a side on the back of putting Man City to the sword. You will see plenty of regurgitated fallacies implying he can only pass the ball sideways or backwards, when the actual stats patently dictate otherwise, particularly striking when compared to his midfield competition.

Propper on the other hand is a new player, cost some (relatively) big bucks, is a Dutch international and very occasionally plays a 5 yard pass with the outside of his foot which is deemed to be phenominal technical skill. He has a good pass in him don't get me wrong, but so does Stephens and Dale packs a hell of alot more bite. Both are quite slow, on balance I'd have Stephens every time alongside Bissouma but depends on who we are playing.

Stephens did ok today for his first game back, a couple of vital interceptions and tackles from what I recall. Propper was absolutely abysmal from a player, as you say, who is expected to do more. Hope this goes some way in explaining why a majority on here see it the other way round.

Well thank you . At least I know I'm not banished to idiots corner on my own

 

[SeagullDubai]

There you have it ladies and gentlemen. Those of us who have an adverse opinion of Stephens are officially cretins. Pointless arguing with his family.

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[Mellotron]

As has often been said, he’d be better further forward.

This. It feels like we have tried many players in the number 10 role, yet bizarrely not Propper who I have seen on a number of occasions look SUPERB there for Holland.

 

[Guinness Boy]

So, I wasn't there yesterday, a family wedding getting in the way. I saw the line ups, substitutions and comments. However.....

Our central mids tend to pass backwards or sideways when we have the Gross / Murray combination up front because they simply don't have the pace to offer the movement up front. Too often the ball isn't on. We therefore have a tactic of winning it and passing back for either of the full backs or Dunk to hit the wingers at pace. By then Murray and Gross will be creating a bit of space or Gross wiill come out wide to support and create. If our CM's passed forwards to Murray he'd just hold it up and lay it off back to them or a runner.

This is why I was so excited when Andone came on against Palace. He gives you a whole other set of options including turning speculative clearences into goals. Bissouma meanwhile likes to take players on which injects its own pace and creation of space but is a lot more risky.

All the time we select Stephens, Propper, Gross and Murray as the four central forwards minded players in a 4-4-1-1 it's going to go backwards or five yards from the CMs, because the four of them have the relative pace of a snail on mogodon compared with the best defenders and midfielders in the PL.

The issue isn't just Stephens out for Bissouma in - it's when do we change from trying to keep it tight and sneak a win with impact players to when do we play our quicker (but more risky) players from the start?