The Ken Livingstone saga

[Simster]

Indeed and already on this thread there are sweeping statements being made about the Jewish community. It is the one group that people of a certain mindset seem happy to castigate as a community. Substitute 'black' or 'muslim' and these statements would not be spoken/written. These attitudes have been with us for a thousand years and are the reason Israel is needed as a safe haven for Jewish people. Ken Livingstone knows exactly what he is doing by taking history out of context to justify his contemporary view of Middle Eastern politics.

On reflection, I won't actually argue with you or Buzzer - you clearly both believe it is a calculated move designed to antagonise and you might be right. But I still maintain it is shameful on the part of the Labour party for suspending him. What exactly are they afraid of? Personally I thought Michael Howard's war rhetoric over Gibraltar was unhelpful to he government, jingoistic bullshit, all the more stupid when we know it wouldn't ever be HIM at the front line would it? But would I want to see him muzzled by the Tory top brass? Of course not. Let him have his say, and the same should apply to Livingstone here.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

On reflection, I won't actually argue with you or Buzzer - you clearly both believe it is a calculated move designed to antagonise and you might be right. But I still maintain it is shameful on the part of the Labour party for suspending him. What exactly are they afraid of? Personally I thought Michael Howard's war rhetoric over Gibraltar was unhelpful to he government, jingoistic bullshit, all the more stupid when we know it wouldn't ever be HIM at the front line would it? But would I want to see him muzzled by the Tory top brass? Of course not. Let him have his say, and the same should apply to Livingstone here.

I agree that the suspension makes little sense. Either he should be expelled or he has done nothing wrong so there should be no
punishment. Suspension is a messy compromise that pleases no-one.

 

[cheshunt seagull]

Agree with your comments but even these are a simplification which miss the complexity of the Israeli state which one label cannot fit. There is no single Israeli view on most matters and many inside the country control oppose the views of the extremists. What is clear and cannot be ignored is that the country was forged from violence either done to Israel or done by Israel and that violence is continuing from both sides. Until that violence or threat of it stops then Israeli policy will continue to work at the extremes.

Regards Ken Livingstone he really should have said nothing but unfortunately as a marginalised politician he feels he has to say something controversial to stay in the limelight, the fact that his comments reflect the view of the left wing of the labour party is sad.

I agree with your comments about the state of Israel and it is because of these complexities that debate should be focussed on the many current grievances that have their roots in the formation of the state as well as the things that have happened since it was formed and much less on the Holocaust. We also have to recognise the importance of the many members of the Jewish community outside Israel and Israelis who do not support the current hardline government in trying to bring about a change in direction. Livingstone seems to have selected an approach which will antagonise the very groups we need to be supporting.

 

[LondonTown]

I just skim read this thread and I saw no mention of the Transfer Agreement.

There was an unholy alliance between the Nazis and the Zionists at one point, to which Livingstone has referred to on occasion. Hitler wanted the Jews out of Germany, and the Zionists wanted Jews in Israel. Well, it would be difficult to create a state without them, and basically most Jews didn't want to leave Europe at the time, in view of the likelihood of problems with local Arabs. Ironically, the Jews had enjoyed better treatment in Germany than just about anywhere else up until Hitler.

Under the Transfer Agreement, Jews could sell all their belongings in Germany, and they would be reimbursed on arrival in Israel.

It is always important to appreciate that not all Jews are Zionists, and not all Zionists are Jews, as is often said. If you Google 'JAZ' (Jews against Zionism) you can find more about this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Transfer_Agreement

Most Jews are understandably pro Israel these days, and would prefer to forget about this sorry episode of history. One in particular resorted to shouting and screaming 'Antisemite' at Livingstone after he was foolish enough to mention it.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

A point of order, it was Palestine in the 1930s. Israel became a state in May 1948.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

I just skim read this thread and I saw no mention of the Transfer Agreement.

There was an unholy alliance between the Nazis and the Zionists at one point, to which Livingstone has referred to on occasion. Hitler wanted the Jews out of Germany, and the Zionists wanted Jews in Israel. Well, it would be difficult to create a state without them, and basically most Jews didn't want to leave Europe at the time, in view of the likelihood of problems with local Arabs. Ironically, the Jews had enjoyed better treatment in Germany than just about anywhere else up until Hitler.

Under the Transfer Agreement, Jews could sell all their belongings in Germany, and they would be reimbursed on arrival in Israel.

It is always important to appreciate that not all Jews are Zionists, and not all Zionists are Jews, as is often said. If you Google 'JAZ' (Jews against Zionism) you can find more about this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Transfer_Agreement

Most Jews are understandably pro Israel these days, and would prefer to forget about this sorry episode of history. One in particular resorted to shouting and screaming 'Antisemite' at Livingstone after he was foolish enough to mention it.

But what is the point being made ? What is the relevance to Jewish families ? if there was a plot between Hitler and unelected Zionists to 'encourage' Jews to leave Germany then that is to be condemned rather than used to somehow prove complicity between Jewish people and the Nazis. It is a distortion of history using real human beings as a tool to advance a particular agenda. It is bigotry plain and simple.

 

[Perfidious Albion]

This has all the marks of Labour Party infighting rather than a widespread grievance. Seems true tha Hitler at one time supported 'Jews to Palestine' although that is not exactly Zionism.
However , there are those willing to call any criticism of modern Israel " anti Semetism" although it may be nothing of the kind.

I don't blame him for not apologising .

 

[LondonTown]

But what is the point being made ? What is the relevance to Jewish families ? if there was a plot between Hitler and unelected Zionists to 'encourage' Jews to leave Germany then that is to be condemned rather than used to somehow prove complicity between Jewish people and the Nazis. It is a distortion of history using real human beings as a tool to advance a particular agenda. It is bigotry plain and simple.

In this particular instance, however, it seems that Ken Livingstone is the one being condemned, rather than the historical event. Sometimes the messenger gets shot.

I note that this issue was actually discussed earlier in the thread. In my defence I was having connection problems.

 

[LondonTown]

A point of order, it was Palestine in the 1930s. Israel became a state in May 1948.

Yes, good point. In yet another emotive area of history, it is often alleged that influential Jews offered to bring the US into the war (before Britain got its arse kicked), in return for Britain handing over Palestine to the Zionists.

 

[adub68]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ngstone-labour-antisemitism-row-a7009981.html

A decent summary of the historical context and assessment of the two sides of the debate - Mr Livingstone's claim that Hitler somehow went from rational supporter of Zionism to crazy mass murderer; as opposed to treating the German Jewish community as an "asset" to help legitimize the Nazi German State and an escalating evolving policy over time. Somewhat understandable his interpretation should push a button with the Jewish community - something that Mr Livingstone seems to enjoy.

 

[Two Professors]

The whole business of sanctification of Palestinians and demonisation of Israelis gets right up my nose.Good and bad on both sides-don't think Beram and Tomer try to kill each other in the dressing room.Think they'd start getting on better without s**t-stirring politicos like Livingstone transferring their personal agenda on to one side or other.

 

[Chicken Run]

[emoji38]ol:

I've even come round to tolerating estate agents, all thanks to you. [emoji106]

[emoji23]