The Holocaust and denial.

[symyjym]

I believe there are also some myths attached to it as well, like making lampshades from human skin and bars of human soap. I understand that there was a conscious effort to make something really evil to be even more evil for political reasons. I couldn't imagine anyone wanting or using the above items no matter how sick they are.

What is the difference between a genocide and a holocaust?
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-a-genocide-and-a-holocaust

 

[Fungus]

Does his book state that it was a holocaust?
The total number of deaths is not known (unsurprisingly). The cause of the deaths will vary, as will the intent. I don't think there is consensus on those things. I'm only interested in the truth, nothing else.

Was it a holocaust? See Portlock Seagull's post, #20.
Were there many millions of deaths over many decades? I don't think anyone is denying that. Of course we don't know exact numbers.
Were there many causes? Yes. Outright killing, starvation on reservations (who put them there?), disease (gosh, where did that come from?), resources being decimated (who offered rewards for that?).
Was there multiple intent? No doubt. Some was for profit and personal gain, and some was racism and "religious superiority", some was simply to get rid of the "Indian problem".
Were they treated as animals / sub-humans? Of course.
Was their own culture, religion and language banned? Yes.

Would anyone deny the 20th century holocaust if we didn't know the exact details? Up to you.

 

[Eeyore]

Nothing more to say.

With reference to my previous entry 'nothing more to say' is an apt description. My uncle didn't talk about it. But it haunted him.

 

[mxs_harrow]

Really there is not much one can say about this "historic genocide mass murder" (we all know it happened) case/event call it what you want (?) so next point should and in several countries Holocaust Denial be an inprisonable offence ?

Imagine Germany with the law revoked which would give the far right the opportunity to step up their extremism. The state of Iran takes a stance of holocaust denial as part of their anti-Israeli and Jewish propaganda. As this part of history passes beyond living memory, the deniers will be more strident. Nobody in the free democratic world should be complacent about any erosion of truth or justice through the passage of time.

 

[Triggaaar]

Was it a holocaust? See Portlock Seagull's post, #20.

It seems that the definition is unclear. To just say it's a holocaust because a lot of people died is taking away from one some people mean when they say it was a holocaust, as they mean it was deliberate genocide on a large scale.

Would anyone deny the 20th century holocaust if we didn't know the exact details? Up to you.

The Jews were rounded up and systematically slaughtered/deliberately starved to death on a huge scale in a very short space of time, because if their race. There were of course atrocities committed against the Native Americans, but I believe the whole situation was very different to the genocide in WW2.

 

[W.C.]

Anyone else read this recent article about David Irving?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jan/15/david-irving-youtube-inspiring-holocaust-deniers

Irving lost the case – and another that he brought against the Observer over a review by Gita Sereny – but speaking from his home in the Scottish Highlands, a 40-room mansion near Nairn provided by an anonymous benefactor, he says that history has “vindicated” him.

There really are some f**ked up people out there.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

With reference to my previous entry 'nothing more to say' is an apt description. My uncle didn't talk about it. But it haunted him.

Those kinds of images can be seen in Japanese prison camps as well however. Not that I'm saying a holocaust didn't exist. Simply imagery isn't a decider as to whether the holocaust was as reported.

If imagery was the case closer then the Massacre of Nanking made the Polish Death Camps look like holiday camps. Without a doubt some of the most ****ed up and disturbing images come from that event.

It's not considered a holocaust but it's imagery mirrors one.

 

[half time scores]

Concentration camps were not a German invention, We used them during the Boer war.


http://www.boer-war.com/Details2nd/Camps.html

 

[FamilyGuy]

Quite. Let them get on with it and publicly humiliate themselves. The Holocaust Deniers just end up bracketed, quite correctly IMHO, with the David Ickes of this world i.e. as fantasist conspiracy nutters. Which is probably neither here nor there if you're a low IQ man-child virgin with a Nazi fetish living at home with mum in your thirties. Dead funny though if you claim to be a historian, like David Irving. Kiss of professional death. Ha. Ha.

Absolutely what he said.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Seriously? There was pretty much official US government policy of genocide towards the indigenous "Indians", as the settlers swept west according to "manifest destiny". Ancestral lands were taken, natives were put on reservations without the means to live, etc, etc.

For settlers read immigrants. Check out what's happening at Standing Rock and the way the native Americans were treated there just a month ago.

 

[half time scores]

It shouldn't be a criminal offence. Absolutely not.

But most 'deniers' can be called out as anti-Jew. It happened. Unless my uncle, who was part of the group that liberated Belsen, was a liar.

And he wasn't.

As was my late father, he didn't tell anyone including my mother for over 30 years
He went in with the RASC to sort out the mess, build new barracks etc. etc.

 

[W.C.]

Nothing more to say.

I've never listened to that before. Quite extraordinary report. Thanks, if that's the right word, for posting it.

 

[Fungus]

It seems that the definition is unclear. To just say it's a holocaust because a lot of people died is taking away from one some people mean when they say it was a holocaust, as they mean it was deliberate genocide on a large scale.

The Jews were rounded up and systematically slaughtered/deliberately starved to death on a huge scale in a very short space of time, because if their race. There were of course atrocities committed against the Native Americans, but I believe the whole situation was very different to the genocide in WW2.

I'm not going to argue about the definition of "holocaust", or the time-scales. However, the Native Americans were subjected to a deliberate, de-facto "clearance", which was arguably on a larger scale and more effective than that suffered by the Jews.

And no, of course that's not taking anything away from "THE" holocaust, or the others mentioned in this thread. None of them should be denied.

 

[JCL666]

I don't think we should be looking far past our own boarders for the shocking things we've done in the past!! Also no need to harp on about what's happened just learn from it

I get that atonement and apologies in the modern era do little to address what happened in the past. However there's no doubt that economic inequality between and within countries can in many instances be linked these events, so I can understand why people "harp on" about it.

 

[JCL666]

Holocaust means destruction or devastation on a mass scale, that's all. So you can label any number of events that if you want to, all subjective. It's simply become synonymous with the final solution for obvious reasons.

Most of the devastation of the American indians was caused by disease, I wouldn't agree it was therefore a holocaust in most people's interpretation though as said, you could argue that as an award winning author might! And yes, I've read Dee Brown's book. But about 20 years ago, funnily enough I noticed last month it was still on a bookshelf at my parents house. Might read again one day.

I agree, tbh I think that the semantics of it are interesting but don't really matter that much.

There are multiple genocides throughout history based on cultural/commercial exploitation. Many of them could be described as a holocaust.

There was a genocide in world war 2 which has become known as "The Holocaust" and is the most commonly understood use of the word holocaust.

 

[spence]

Really there is not much one can say about this "historic genocide mass murder" (we all know it happened) case/event call it what you want (?) so next point should and in several countries Holocaust Denial be an inprisonable offence ?

Have you read the little tag to this thread

 

[portlock seagull]

I agree, tbh I think that the semantics of it are interesting but don't really matter that much.

There are multiple genocides throughout history based on cultural/commercial exploitation. Many of them could be described as a holocaust.

There was a genocide in world war 2 which has become known as "The Holocaust" and is the most commonly understood use of the word holocaust.

This. And that sums up this thread for me now, people quibbling about words when really it's just interpretation. Semantics as you say.