The guy who stormed out of H Block

[Westdene Seagull]

These stupid private seat licences certainly wouldn't help the cause.

Although based on the photo BoF posted they could still be sold for the standing area as it still looks as though you get a designated standing spot.

 

[NMH]

Although based on the photo BoF posted they could still be sold for the standing area as it still looks as though you get a designated standing spot.

That's an interesting photo of standing area with seats - BUT it does invite some other problems (and I'm looking at this from my point of view as a fan wanting to see a game). WHEN is it 'the right time' to sit or stand, and when you get some supporters deciding "I want to sit, because there's a seat here and not enough is happening to stand up for", they are preeetty soon going to decide that the person standing in front of them is 'in their way'. Imagine some thug type, who is also a lardarse, and HE decides he's the bees knees and YOU oughta sit down - even though you want to stand for the whole game regardless, and only use the seat for half-time or prematch.
"cooee, Mr Steward....this nasty man is intimidating me and I want to stand".

Or else it's a girl, she's incapable of standing for a whole match and is pregnant/dizzy/weak legs, but you have to tell her she "shouldn't have bought a ticket in this section then". There would have to be signs posted that make it clear that standing presides, and no person wishing to sit has a right to ask anyone else to sit down, end of.

My point is that the photo shows seats that would be best simply REMOVED, so there's no argument and no doubts - it's a STANDING SECTION ONLY.

 

[Sensitive_Guy69]

Hahahahaa

 

[Hotchilidog]

That's an interesting photo of standing area with seats - BUT it does invite some other problems (and I'm looking at this from my point of view as a fan wanting to see a game). WHEN is it 'the right time' to sit or stand, and when you get some supporters deciding "I want to sit, because there's a seat here and not enough is happening to stand up for", they are preeetty soon going to decide that the person standing in front of them is 'in their way'. Imagine some thug type, who is also a lardarse, and HE decides he's the bees knees and YOU oughta sit down - even though you want to stand for the whole game regardless, and only use the seat for half-time or prematch.
"cooee, Mr Steward....this nasty man is intimidating me and I want to stand".

Or else it's a girl, she's incapable of standing for a whole match and is pregnant/dizzy/weak legs, but you have to tell her she "shouldn't have bought a ticket in this section then". There would have to be signs posted that make it clear that standing presides, and no person wishing to sit has a right to ask anyone else to sit down, end of.

My point is that the photo shows seats that would be best simply REMOVED, so there's no argument and no doubts - it's a STANDING SECTION ONLY.

Those areas have seats to comply with the UEFA seating rule in the champions league. All the major stadia in Germany have this, including the Allianz Arena in Munich which is the newest stadium. I agree that it is pointless moaning to the club, they have rules to enforce. But those who argue that there is no such thing as safe standing are just f**king liars. Sadly the Hillsborough disaster has been exploited by the big clubs for cash

 

[NMH]

Those areas have seats to comply with the UEFA seating rule in the champions league. All the major stadia in Germany have this, including the Allianz Arena in Munich which is the newest stadium. I agree that it is pointless moaning to the club, they have rules to enforce. But those who argue that there is no such thing as safe standing are just f**king liars. Sadly the Hillsborough disaster has been exploited by the big clubs for cash

Wow! That's quite a statement there. I understood H'bro being more of a WARNING that resounded loudly throughout the league and football in general, for crowd safety, control, and the health and welfare of supporters when attending events. That COSTS money, and I can't personally see how your assertion works. I imagine the costs ARE balanced by raising prices, or charging tv more for showing matches, or somewhere. Then - I'd suggest that player wages hike ticket prices. Running costs are not really a profit, just something to offset - and safety at stadiums is therefore in with running costs.

 

[Hotchilidog]

Wow! That's quite a statement there. I understood H'bro being more of a WARNING that resounded loudly throughout the league and football in general, for crowd safety, control, and the health and welfare of supporters when attending events. That COSTS money, and I can't personally see how your assertion works. I imagine the costs ARE balanced by raising prices, or charging tv more for showing matches, or somewhere. Then - I'd suggest that player wages hike ticket prices. Running costs are not really a profit, just something to offset - and safety at stadiums is therefore in with running costs.

All seater stadiums have nothing to do with safety. You can charge more for a seat than you can for a standing place it's economics. The Hillsborough disaster happened for a whole host of reasons but the main factor in the fatalities was the fence not the terracing. It is possible for spectators to stand at a football match in perfect safety, just as it is at a rugby match, pop concert or indeed any other public event. The football authorities in this country have conveniently ignored the overwhelming evidence that supports SAFE standing areas so that they can continue to charge a premium price for tickets.

Having said that, I personally am looking forward to taking up my seat at Falmer and enjoying the football in comfort, but I see no reason why and neither do the club, other than the current regulations, why those who chose to do so cannot safely stand behind the goal.

 

[NMH]

All seater stadiums have nothing to do with safety. You can charge more for a seat than you can for a standing place it's economics. The Hillsborough disaster happened for a whole host of reasons but the main factor in the fatalities was the fence not the terracing. It is possible for spectators to stand at a football match in perfect safety, just as it is at a rugby match, pop concert or indeed any other public event. The football authorities in this country have conveniently ignored the overwhelming evidence that supports SAFE standing areas so that they can continue to charge a premium price for tickets.

Having said that, I personally am looking forward to taking up my seat at Falmer and enjoying the football in comfort, but I see no reason why and neither do the club, other than the current regulations, why those who chose to do so cannot safely stand behind the goal.

Well mate, in my experience from standing on terraces, you first point doesn't hold ANY water. Terraces can pack twice the number of fans for the space.
Obviously the evolution of crowd management has 'matured', and people in football authority have learned from mistakes.
You have other evidence apparently, but 'overwhelming evidence' won't bring back the dead, or simply blow away the decades spent tackling crowd violence or instability.

 

[Storer68]

The system used in Germany to turn terraces into seats for UEFA controlled games and then back to terraces for the Bundesliega games, actually pretty much double the footprint that stadia occupy. One reaason that so many german clubs have built brand new stadia rather than adapt (as happenedd in this country) was that they wanted to utilise this system rather than have simple permanent seats. (as well as hosting the World Cup in 2006)

For example, if it had been used at the Emirates, its capacity would have been reduced to round 30,000 rather than the 60,355 it is with permanenet seats

The Independent - March 11 2001
Hamburg's renovated ground can accommodate 10,100 fans standing out of a 55,000 capacity. They have a revolutionary design in which seats can be folded into the steps that make up terracing. Werder Bremen's design for their 36,000-capacity stadium sees seats fold up into the crush barriers. It accommodates 5,000 fans standing. Schalke's new stadium has space for 16,800 standing fans out of a capacity of 62,000, but seats can be installed on the terraces. Capacity in standing areas is reduced by 50 per cent at all three clubs when converted to seats.


and from "The Gurdian forums 22 April 2010
do have an idea it works perfectly well in Germany because I've lived here for 5 years now. If Borussia Dortmund (as one well-known example) can have 25,000 people all standing behind one goal (analogous to The Kop at Anfield or The Stretford End at Old Trafford) then the principle is established. However, this is not why this idea is dead in the water. It is dead in the water because all our top stadiums went all-seater in the aftermath of the Hillsborough Disaster (which I was at). There is no way on God's green earth that clubs will pay to convert areas of their stadiums back to standing areas for which they will be obliged to charge less. Things have moved on. The only alternative would be a law obliging stadiums to have such areas but surely there are more important things for governments to be doing than that?

Like conanthebarbarian, I, too, was at Hillsborough, on the Leppings Lane terrace. The reasons he cites for Foster's idea being irrelevant are spot-on. I don't have an aversion to terraces. However, things have moved on so much in British stadia over the last 20 years; why should clubs reintroduce terraces (extremely unlikely, since it was a Taylor Report recommendation), & thereby reduce match day revenue? The campaigns at various clubs, such as Liverpool & Man Utd, over ownership do not feature a call for the return of terraces, nor should they.

 

[Hotchilidog]

Well mate, in my experience from standing on terraces, you first point doesn't hold ANY water. Terraces can pack twice the number of fans for the space.
Obviously the evolution of crowd management has 'matured', and people in football authority have learned from mistakes.
You have other evidence apparently, but 'overwhelming evidence' won't bring back the dead, or simply blow away the decades spent tackling crowd violence or instability.

All I am saying is that it is perfectly possible to have a safe standing environment inside a soccer stadium, this is a fact, it is indisputable, I don't understand your querying of the evidence for this when over 100,000 fans stand at Bundesliga matches every weekend. Not mention the thousands who stand at Heineken league rugby or Super League fixtures too.

The cost of attending football has increased out of all recognition since Hillsborough and all seater stadia have been instrumental in this.

I am not contending we return to what I would also consider the 'bad old days' of the 80's. I agree that crowd behaviour had to change and I have no desire to relive those times, but that is not what this debate is about.

FWIW it's worth I am not having a go at the club or it's employees who are duty bound to enforce the regulations foisted upon them by the authorities, I'm merely questioning the assertion that is not safe to stand and watch a football match.

 

[NMH]

All I am saying is that it is perfectly possible to have a safe standing environment inside a soccer stadium, this is a fact, it is indisputable, I don't understand your querying of the evidence for this when over 100,000 fans stand at Bundesliga matches every weekend. Not mention the thousands who stand at Heineken league rugby or Super League fixtures too.

The cost of attending football has increased out of all recognition since Hillsborough and all seater stadia have been instrumental in this.

I am not contending we return to what I would also consider the 'bad old days' of the 80's. I agree that crowd behaviour had to change and I have no desire to relive those times, but that is not what this debate is about.

FWIW it's worth I am not having a go at the club or it's employees who are duty bound to enforce the regulations foisted upon them by the authorities, I'm merely questioning the assertion that is not safe to stand and watch a football match.

Well, when I bought my first pair of Levis aroundabout 1970, they were around £2.00. Now they are ......?

Entry to a football match has gone up - but is it so out of line "astronomical" with inflation?

Last time I was at a Bundesliga stadium (Fortuna Dusseldorf v Rot Weiss Essen in a cup match), I was seated. It was so far back from the actual pitch that I felt like I was just there for the sake of somewhere to sit! There was a track between the stands and the field, and no way could I make out who was who. It was detaching, and the lack of any atmosphere showed I wasn't the only one feeling that way. Fortuna won 3-1, I didn't feel I'd been to an 'event', whatsoever. There were thin fences there I seem to recall.
The place was as dull as concrete.

But I digress - the SAFE aspect you mentioned is all well and good - but .....safe at WITHDEAN is another thing.
I personally wouldn't call Withdean's meccano stands 'safe for terracing' at all. And apparently they aren't doing spectacularly well at the moment, as someone previously spoke about them deteriorating and not looking too bright right now.
Stand on them? Nein danke.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Well, when I bought my first pair of Levis aroundabout 1970, they were around £2.00. Now they are ......?

Entry to a football match has gone up - but is it so out of line "astronomical" with inflation?

f*** yes - a mate brought himself and his son Chelsea tickets for Christmas and they were £67 EACH - with no reduction for the child !!!! Football entry prices have risen far in excess of inflation.

 

[Murray's Mint]

The system used in Germany to turn terraces into seats for UEFA controlled games and then back to terraces for the Bundesliega games, actually pretty much double the footprint that stadia occupy. One reaason that so many german clubs have built brand new stadia rather than adapt (as happenedd in this country) was that they wanted to utilise this system rather than have simple permanent seats. (as well as hosting the World Cup in 2006)

For example, if it had been used at the Emirates, its capacity would have been reduced to round 30,000 rather than the 60,355 it is with permanenet seats

The Independent - March 11 2001
Hamburg's renovated ground can accommodate 10,100 fans standing out of a 55,000 capacity. They have a revolutionary design in which seats can be folded into the steps that make up terracing. Werder Bremen's design for their 36,000-capacity stadium sees seats fold up into the crush barriers. It accommodates 5,000 fans standing. Schalke's new stadium has space for 16,800 standing fans out of a capacity of 62,000, but seats can be installed on the terraces. Capacity in standing areas is reduced by 50 per cent at all three clubs when converted to seats.


and from "The Gurdian forums 22 April 2010
do have an idea it works perfectly well in Germany because I've lived here for 5 years now. If Borussia Dortmund (as one well-known example) can have 25,000 people all standing behind one goal (analogous to The Kop at Anfield or The Stretford End at Old Trafford) then the principle is established. However, this is not why this idea is dead in the water. It is dead in the water because all our top stadiums went all-seater in the aftermath of the Hillsborough Disaster (which I was at). There is no way on God's green earth that clubs will pay to convert areas of their stadiums back to standing areas for which they will be obliged to charge less. Things have moved on. The only alternative would be a law obliging stadiums to have such areas but surely there are more important things for governments to be doing than that?

Like conanthebarbarian, I, too, was at Hillsborough, on the Leppings Lane terrace. The reasons he cites for Foster's idea being irrelevant are spot-on. I don't have an aversion to terraces. However, things have moved on so much in British stadia over the last 20 years; why should clubs reintroduce terraces (extremely unlikely, since it was a Taylor Report recommendation), & thereby reduce match day revenue? The campaigns at various clubs, such as Liverpool & Man Utd, over ownership do not feature a call for the return of terraces, nor should they.

The Independent article actually says that the capacity of the standing areas is halved when converted back to seats. Ergo the capacity of seating areas is doubled when converted to standing. So actually according to this article the capacity of the Emirates would be doubled from 60,000 seated to 120,000 standing with this system.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Entry to a football match has gone up - but is it so out of line "astronomical" with inflation?

Entry to a football match was the equivalent of a price of a packet of fags.

 

[Marc1901]

This thread has got tooo technical.

 

[brighton_girl87]

This thread has got tooo technical.

 

[KneeOn]

I want to hear more about this Helte v magoo's brother/mate case!

 

[Storer68]

By the way, you would have to change the law in this country first before you can put a terrace back at a Premier or Championship club ground.

So get and Act of Parliament passed first - its hardly a hot topic that's going to win any votes

Might take a while.

 

[Caveman]

Can we shut up with this standing bollocks.

Sit down and shut up.

 

[¤DãŃn¥ §êãGüLL¤]

I want to hear more about this Helte v magoo's brother/mate case!

Aye me too

 

[The Ringleader Returns!]

Sit down and shut up.

Half of my post was deleted.

I think it was for my own saftey, because I called Helter names.