[Football] The future of VAR in England

[kemptown kid]

I've voted bin it for various reasons, e.g. it instituionalises an unnecessary gulf between different tiers of football and creates a bogus illusion of perfect refereeing, and would be very happy if it were scrapped totally or only used for blatant mistakes. Anything that destroys the immediacy and joy of a goal is anathema to everything we love about the beautiful game.

 

[beorhthelm]

All things football (supporters inc), just 2 years ago, were at a point that VAR had to be bought in because it just couldn't continue as it was, while hoovering up vast sums of cash.

Let's not rewrite history.

The fact the the panacea turned out to be a snake oil salesman - well who could have seen that coming!

im pretty sure many were against, in particular it would interfere with flow or make incorrect decisions (because replays couldnt always make clear either). yes there was a call for TV use, but it wasnt not universal.

 

[sydney]

it is being used the the Nth degree which is frankly ridiculous , not used when it should be and used when it's not needed , just another excuse to get 2 more ********s involved who are as clueless as the four at the ground ....bin it , ref in each half , no linesmen and a video ref at each ground with camera assist for off side , corners and throw ins.

 

[blue-shifted]

The mere fact you didn't know that the officials had been miked up for so long kind of obliterates your argument. You don't know what they do and don't see, nor how they communicate - you've admitted as much. In fact, it appears you're more arguing FOR refereeing by television.I've often seen linos and referees in disagreement (e.g. whether to award a goal kick or a corner), and the ref defer to the linesman without going over to confer. Or the linesman spot an infringement, and suggest to the referee that it merited more than just a free kick.

As for the fourth official, Romain Vincelot was sent off on the back of something the fourth official saw. The others missed it because it was off the ball. And that's the point, anything the fourth official sees that the others will miss will be because it will be an off the ball incident. At all other times, all four officials will all see the same thing.

When they're not sure which way to give a throw-in, linos have ALWAYS looked to the referee - usually for assistance. If they don't know who it came off, they don't know. Nothing to do with subservience.

As for the Villa / Sheff U game, it's well appreciated that the ball was over the line for a fraction of a second, and the linesman's view was partially blocked. So it was not obvious to him. And for such a call, it's a brave linesman who will over-ride the goal line technology. Why VAR didn't pick up on it, I've no idea though.

Good rant though.

Glaringly obvious that the tech is there and anybody who has seen a football match will know this. I'm not saying it isn't. I'm saying there is very little evidence that they use it in any sort of effective way. Oh yes, so we have two examples of 4th officials intervening , Vincelot and Zidane in 25 years (maybe it's a French thing) and none in the last 5 years.

You must watch more football than me mate, because I can't remember the last time I saw a decision where the ref thought one way and the lino overruled and told him the other. Used to be pretty common, but the dynamic has changed.

I stand by it. Refs need more help. Not from VAR as it takes too long, but by their on field team. It comes down to training and empowerment

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Bin it now. It is ruining the flow of the game.

 

[Bold Seagull]

The Patrick Bamford offside decision is arguably one of the worse decisions in a long time, and it was made by the technology.

The on field decision to allow the goal was perfectly fine.

Inventing a system that actually creates bad decisions is the antithesis of why we needed it. At present it is an outright disgrace to the game, I'm actually glad we're not in grounds to have to suffer it.

 

[Mellotron]

That's not my point.

My point is everything you and [MENTION=12101]Mellotron[/MENTION] and others have suggested to make VAR 'work' are pretty much meaningless.

All your rule changes are open to the same interpretation, all you suggest is wholesale moving of the Titanic's deckchairs.


I guess taking my point to it's (il)logical conclusion would be:-

To make VAR work (which we have to because as we all agree isn't never going away)

Football needs to remove

- Live TV.
- Pundits.
- Slow motion.
- Critical analysis.
- Phone ins
- Review shows.

and so on.


Basically for VAR to work we need to remove all the aspects of the bloated swirling noise that engulfs the game, which caused VAR to be implemented in the first place.

Sorry that's bollocks. That's like saying we can't have referees, or players have haircuts or special boots, because people will continue to comment on them. What nonsense.

 

[Stat Brother]

The Patrick Bamford offside decision is arguably one of the worse decisions in a long time, and it was made by the technology.

The on field decision to allow the goal was perfectly fine.

Inventing a system that actually creates bad decisions is the antithesis of why we needed it. At present it is an outright disgrace to the game, I'm actually glad we're not in grounds to have to suffer it.

It's what happens when you bolt on new tech and then have to retrofit everything else.


It just never works.

 

[haardman]

Personally I'd like to move towards what other sports have done:
1. Broadcast the ref mics (have reusable earpieces for the fans in the ground). This demystifies the whole process. The Australian footage is a great example.
2. Change the handball law (there's nothing wrong with VAR in this regard). The law just needs changing.
3. Offside should be called by the onfield officials as it is now (at the end of the play). VAR can review but using a margin of error (like cricket LBW). i.e. a ball's width. If the offside body part is within that margin of error then it's "umpire's call" and the decision stays with the ref's original call. If not, then it's overturned.
4. Allow VAR to recommend the ref review anything (no limits) on the pitchside monitor if they see a glaring mistake. The goal that Hawkeye failed to pickup was not reviewed because goalline reviews were not part of the VAR remit (Hawkeye was supposed to have it covered). This is quite plainly nonsense. Let's let VAR review anything. The ref can choose to review or let the game flow.
5. Citation like rugby: All games are reviewed by a panel. If a ref got a decision wrong, or a player cheated and got away with it, change the decision - issue or overturn bans accordingly.

 

[Stat Brother]

Sorry that's bollocks. That's like saying we can't have referees, or players have haircuts or special boots, because people will continue to comment on them. What nonsense.

It's what you get when you come to an "(il)logical conclusion".

The reason we have VAR is because the game was being put under a forensic microscope.
Try as we might VAR's not going away, so remove the microscope!

 

[Weststander]

In its current form, it's awful - minutes of interruption mid half and slide rule offsides based on a cm of shirt or shoulder being 'offside'.

It's here to stay forever. Covered in radio pieces, it's the brainchild of FIFA and Collina, it is or will become mandatory across all elite leagues.

 

[The Fits]

Scrap it save for a fourth official focussing purely on cheating and dangerous play. Just have someone looking out for diving, cheating, incidents off the ball. That kind if thing. They can also look at anything the staff pick up during the game, but it needs to be going on in the background unnoticed, no stopping the game. Once a misdemeanour is confirmed, game is stopped, incident is played on big screen and player is booked/sent off.

All this handball/offside stuff is bollocks.

 

[Mellotron]

It's what you get when you come to an "(il)logical conclusion".

The reason we have VAR is because the game was being put under a forensic microscope.
Try as we might VAR's not going away, so remove the microscope!

Again, this doesn't really relate to what I was saying, but sure.

It's not going to happen (caveat that shouldn't be needed) but if VAR was used for clear and obvious only (ie much more sparingly), we'd be in better shape. Yes people would still call for more/less VAR/blah blah blah, but they'll do that WHATEVER the situation is.

Your issue seems to be with the very fact that there is an industry and accompanying commentary around football. That's always going to be there, and will focus on whatever's in flavour at the time - 5 subs, big picture, VAR, etc etc.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

It worked well in the World Cup but somehow the English FA and PL have managed to make a complete balls up of it.

 

[Mellotron]

It worked well in the World Cup but somehow the English FA and PL have managed to make a complete balls up of it.

I've also seen it used excellently in the Belgian league - live and in the flesh.

It is possible. Just not probable, sadly.

 

[Easy 10]

^^ what [MENTION=70]Easy 10[/MENTION] said.

But also, I'm going to play devil's advocate even further. The post above Easy's says

With VAR more decisions are technically right than without it,

Why do we need technically right decisions? Being a football fan in this country gives you access to a unique community and culture, one I'm proud to be part of. And when I first started being part of it one thing was clear; the referee was a in black who didn't know what he was doing and needed to borrow the spectacles belonging to the old bloke two steps below me. They were all biased to the big clubs and, in many cases, had been "bribed" by our opponents (many of whose fans were making similar allegations at different times in the game). But so what?

There are a few things from those days that we are well rid of. Racism. Casual violence on the terraces. Balls so hard they gave centre halves dementia years later. Scratchy kits. Wagon Wheels. But we risk throwing the baby out with the bathwater in our constant striving for "perfection". VAR is the football equivalent of air brushing a magazine picture and just as unwanted. Not once did I ever hear the old bloke who was offering the ref his specs say "do you know what would clear this up? Stupid handball rules and some lines drawn on the pitch in crayon by software based near Heathrow".

I once went all the way to Sunderland and saw us lose to a goal that was 10 yards offside and it never did me any harm. In fact it gave us something FUNNY to talk about on the train home over many tinnies and a renewed sense that it was us against the world after all.

With you all the way on that GB - except for getting rid of Wagon Wheels.

WTF ?

 

[Guinness Boy]

With you all the way on that GB - except for getting rid of Wagon Wheels.

WTF ?

The ones they sold in the North Stand were rubbish. Thinking about it, do you think they'd been there a while?

 

[southstandandy]

Scrap it save for a fourth official focussing purely on cheating and dangerous play. Just have someone looking out for diving, cheating, incidents off the ball. That kind if thing. They can also look at anything the staff pick up during the game, but it needs to be going on in the background unnoticed, no stopping the game. Once a misdemeanour is confirmed, game is stopped, incident is played on big screen and player is booked/sent off.

All this handball/offside stuff is bollocks.

At least we haven't yet seen the 'groin' being given offside here in England. The lad who scored for Celta Vigo last season and then having his goal chalked off for his groin being given offside is something we don't want to see here. Especially if we have an especially cold winter! It could happen....

"And we go to Stockley Park where they are deciding if Harry Kane's knob was in an offside position.......and yes it's been ruled out. Well I've never seen that before, have you Alan"........"It's a hard one to swallow".....

 

[keaton]

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...premier-league-var?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

Keith Hacket against VAR and English refs

 

[Easy 10]

The ones they sold in the North Stand were rubbish. Thinking about it, do you think they'd been there a while?

They were being sold directly next to festering open latrines. Nothing would surprise me.