[News] The future of faith: young people switched off?

[Papa Lazarou]

I've never heard that theory but I have heard the one where life is just merely existence where there's no such thing as right and wrong. We can kill , we can hate, we can live in spite and we can do basically all that we like because all of this is just one big massive universal cock up created through a massive explosion.

What? Where did you hear that? It is true that there are no 'natural' consequences for our actions, and the universe doesn't care what we do... but that doesn't give anyone the right to do bad things without any consideration for morality and laws. I think your over simplifying the issue.

Also I'm surprised you've not heard of the simulation hypothesis. It's been widely reported over the last decade at least, as there is a view among some physicists that it's the most likely scenario for our existence. There are plans to devise experiments to prove one way or another which is correct, so we may find out at some point.

Elon Musk is a strong advocate of this view,

https://www.theguardian.com/technol...in-a-computer-simulation-the-matrix-elon-musk

the computer simulation idea isnt taken seriously as its just a fantasy idea to base some films around, there's no actual science. as it supposes one universe and some form of virtual existence, its quite different from the many-worlds interpretatio. that is as expression of how to deal with the outcomes of quantum mechanics, in which we exist not just in this universe but an infinite number of parallel universes all slightly different.

And to answer your point, no, it's clearly more than a sci-fi idea. The films (Matrix being a well known example) were based upon the idea that we're all in a simulation. As I've said above, there are many scientists, philosophers and technologist who support this view.

 

[beorhthelm]

And to answer your point, no, it's clearly more than a sci-fi idea. The films (Matrix being a well known example) were based upon the idea that we're all in a simulation. As I've said above, there are many scientists, philosophers and technologist who support this view.

care to name scientist? philosophers and technologists can make up any old nonsense, science requires a higher standard. as you refer to it yourself, its a hypothesis, not a testable theory.

 

[Megazone]

Big Bang theory is explanation of the physics around a probable event. it does not preclude the possibility of the existence of gods, so this isn't a valid counter-argument. i just dont have any belief in them, just as i have no belief there is a teapot circling the earth. in your line of argument, if i dont have belief in the a teapot, i must believe there is an banana there.

This is a never ending debate because people will only understand from their level of perspective. Just because you haven't experienced something, doesn't mean others haven't.

Associating unicorns and flying teapots with Spirituality just proves where Atheism is up to right now.

Meditation, Yoga, Ayahuasca retreats etc are all growing in western culture as well as the claims it works. Are they all a bunch of flying unicorn believers too because science can't explain it?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Religion was explained very well by a chap on the radio a few years back. He said that 2,000 years ago life was very tough and religion gave you the discipline to get through a miserable life, don't steal, don't envy your neighbour with a stronger Ox , don't drink alcohol... etc etc. Life was still pretty hard and you would often see children die in infancy and you were powerless to stop it. Religion gave you hope that if you were good all your suffering here would be rewarded in " Heaven " in the next life. All your relatives would await you in heaven if you were good in this life and so you were kept in control as it were, otherwise life would have been a free for all. Now as we become more aware of our existence in a Universe of worlds a God seems a bit far fetched.

The Ten Commandments predate Jesus by 4000 years, via Moses.

 

[beorhthelm]

This is a never ending debate because people will only understand from their level of perspective. Just because you haven't experienced something, doesn't mean others haven't.

Associating unicorns and flying teapots with Spirituality just proves where Atheism is up to right now.

nice change of tack there... now your talking about spirituality? which is it, gods, God or spirits? you could just simply accept the concept of non-belief. let put it another way: i bet you dont believe in unicorns or cosmic tea, i accept that without making any further assumption on what you might believe.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Sorry yes, a litany of abuses over decades and centuries across the globe under the protection of the church should always be kept quiet when talking about all the good the church does.

Of course people are out there who genuinely care, most people are good whether atheist, religious or otherwise and do care - I'm not having a pop at people!

The problem with the church is power, devoid of democracy or control as we know it, religion can hold a tyrannical hold over its followers. It is why each religion splinters so much, it is mostly about control and power.

I see the church down in Brighton doing great things for the homeless and people in need, but personally I don't see the church, I just see good people. Those same people would be good and contributing I expect in a parallel universe in exactly the same way with or without the church. Perhaps the church brings good people together, it is a bonus, but the downside is it can also empower the very bad.

Child abuse has also happened in schools so do you blame education?

 

[Megazone]

nice change of tack there... now your talking about spirituality? which is it, gods, God or spirits? you could just simply accept the concept of non-belief. let put it another way: i bet you dont believe in unicorns or cosmic tea, i accept that without making any further assumption on what you might believe.

I think it's you who's confused by the concept of non-belief, otherwise you'd not be on here debating the existence of spirituality?

You are claiming a massive explosion created the universe, without any hard evidence to back it up. That's a belief.

The non-believer is someone who wouldn't have an opinion on this, as they believe in nothing. Their view would be "I don't believe in anything" not " Atheism is correct". Atheism believes there is no God. That's fair enough, but you will have to accept it's a belief, especially if you're wrong....

 

[Papa Lazarou]

care to name scientist? philosophers and technologists can make up any old nonsense, science requires a higher standard. as you refer to it yourself, its a hypothesis, not a testable theory.

You're correct of course. The consensus is that we're NOT in a simulation. Neil deGrasse Tyson did say it was about a 50% chance in 2016, but I think the idea IS less popular now.

See here for a debate on it https://www.amnh.org/explore/news-b...memorial-debate-is-the-universe-a-simulation/

I can't fathom just how complex such a simulation would have to be to keep everyone fooled the whole time... but maybe I'm the only real person in here?

 

[LlcoolJ]

Ian Watkins (Lost Prophets lead singer) used to publicly preach Atheism by ridiculing the belief in a greater being claiming it was to control all of us.

I can see where that belief suited his sexual desire.

One complete **** Vs thousands of years of oppression, war, abuse, murder. Yeah comparable obviously.

It's funny how you still wade into these threads though after being outed as a multiple account running, conspiracy theory supporting serial liar and nutjob.

I'd guess that the less psychotic people of faith on here won't really welcome your input on the side of religion as you (very badly) stating a case for it is massively detrimental to the cause.

Moon landings fake/God real. You go girl.

 

[Megazone]

One complete **** Vs thousands of years of oppression, war, abuse, murder. Yeah comparable obviously.

It's funny how you still wade into these threads though after being outed as a multiple account running, conspiracy theory supporting serial liar and nutjob.

I'd guess that the less psychotic people of faith on here won't really welcome your input on the side of religion as you (very badly) stating a case for it is massively detrimental to the cause.

Moon landings fake/God real. You go girl.

No need to get spiteful there LLcoolj. You might have some sort personal vendetta against me, but that doesn't need to coincide with your Atheist/spiritual beliefs on NSC. We all might have contrasting beliefs in God/ coincidence etc, but we all agree we need to respect and treat each other with morality, which proves these discussions can be healthy. There really isn't any need to get nasty on here like you randomly have. I'm sorry if I've ever offended you in the past and I hope you can get over it. But please let's just keep things civil. I really can't be arsed to dwelve into some sort of spiritual belief slagging match which the above post is so desperately seeking for.

Why not try some Yoga?

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

If people genuinely care will they not welcome candour regarding historical institutional abuses?


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Sorry yes, a litany of abuses over decades and centuries across the globe under the protection of the church should always be kept quiet when talking about all the good the church does.

Of course people are out there who genuinely care, most people are good whether atheist, religious or otherwise and do care - I'm not having a pop at people!

The problem with the church is power, devoid of democracy or control as we know it, religion can hold a tyrannical hold over its followers. It is why each religion splinters so much, it is mostly about control and power.

I see the church down in Brighton doing great things for the homeless and people in need, but personally I don't see the church, I just see good people. Those same people would be good and contributing I expect in a parallel universe in exactly the same way with or without the church. Perhaps the church brings good people together, it is a bonus, but the downside is it can also empower the very bad.

Yes, the Church does need to acknowledge - and does acknowledge - the abuse and so on that has gone on in the past. And it's about more than acknowledging and saying sorry. Having said that, some people seem to think that every vicar or youth-club leader is guilty of abuse, and that is far from the truth.

In terms of the problem with the Church being power, I think that varies from Church to Church. I can remember my grandfather in the 1960s saying that Catholicism was a religion of fear, which may have been the case, but there were people like Archbishop Oscar Romero (later than the 1960s) who was murdered in 1980 for his work alongside the poor in El Salvador. It was he who famously said "If I give bread to the poor, they call me a Saint. If I ask why the poor have no bread, they call me a Communist.

I am am a member of the Methodist Church, which has been around for 300 years. It is actually (technically at least) governed by its members rather that the ministers - the ordained people are "ministers", minister being the Latin for Servant, but the relationship will depend on the congregation and the individual priest/minister - some congregations will want to rule the roost and dictate to their leader, while some will want to be and perhaps need to be led.

John Wesley in the early days of his ministry was based at somewhere called the Foundery in London - very close to where the Barbican is now. He had to rebuild it but, when they had done, they did all sorts of things like education for the Children of the poor, supporting people with small loans and the like to enable women to raise themselves out of prostitution or to get themselves better set-up, free clinics and basic medical care for the poor about 200 years before the NHS was ever heard of, accompanying condemned prisoners to their place of execution. Their view was that the Church was there to serve, which is exactly what the Church(es) you talk about in Brighton are doing.

And I would hope that they are doing it unconditionally, for anyone regardless of what they believe or what they have done, and working with others of faith or of no faith. By "unconditionally", I mean not expecting anything in return. One Church based organisation o knew of in Portsmouth which offered a free hot meal for the homeless one night a week, but insisted in praying with the recipients during the meal. I had a colleague in Portsmouth, and we thought this was dreadful, the equivalent of hitting people when they were down, taking advantage of people when they are at their most vulnerable. So I am not so naïve to think that everyone in the Churches is perfect.......... far from it.

Sorry this is so long and rambling, for anyone who has got this far. There is a great deal of good stuff done by the Churches (and the other Faith Communities), most of it I believe for exactly the right motives, some of it, though, for reasons which are a bit more dubious, and there are still plenty of people who would not bother, despite people like me banging on about the fact that a totally necessary part of the Christian faith is to serve others, particularly those less fortunate than ourselves.

And, as the large lady at the end of the Morecambe and Wise show used to say: ...... "And I Love You All"........ In a purely platonic way, of course.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Child abuse has also happened in schools so do you blame education?

And football clubs.

 

[Megazone]

And football clubs.

and Governments.

 

[LlcoolJ]

No need to get spiteful there LLcoolj. You might have some sort personal vendetta against me, but that doesn't need to coincide with your Atheist/spiritual beliefs on NSC. We all might have contrasting beliefs in God/ coincidence etc, but we all agree we need to respect and treat each other with morality, which proves these discussions can be healthy. There really isn't any need to get nasty on here like you randomly have. I'm sorry if I've ever offended you in the past and I hope you can get over it. But please let's just keep things civil. I really can't be arsed to dwelve into some sort of spiritual belief slagging match which the above post is so desperately seeking for.

Why not try some Yoga?

I have no issue with yoga. It's good for you. You've never offended me but I've been on this forum long enough to know your game. Although trying to make a child abusing **** out as a poster boy for Atheism is low even by your standards.

Not sure what you see as spiteful, lacking respect or looking for a slagging match in my post either but then you're clearly just trying desperately to play the "I'm being sensible and reserved" card when anyone who has seen your previous nonsense on here will know that that's just a facade.

Pretty amusing really from a total bullshitter (proved by you being outed for creating multiple accounts to support your lying) who believes in 9/11 conspiracies (proved by your numerous posts on the subject) and has claimed that the moon landings were faked (proved by you also posting this). I was merely pointing out that there is a delicious irony in someone who is so massively discredited then wading into a discussion on religion on the side of the existence of God.

If I were religious I would be really pissed off that you were attempting to fight my corner. That's all. Completely civil darling.

 

[Megazone]

I have no issue with yoga. It's good for you. You've never offended me but I've been on this forum long enough to know your game. Although trying to make a child abusing **** out as a poster boy for Atheism is low even by your standards.

Not sure what you see as spiteful, lacking respect or looking for a slagging match in my post either but then you're clearly just trying desperately to play the "I'm being sensible and reserved" card when anyone who has seen your previous nonsense on here will know that that's just a facade.

Pretty amusing really from a total bullshitter (proved by you being outed for creating multiple accounts to support your lying) who believes in 9/11 conspiracies (proved by your numerous posts on the subject) and has claimed that the moon landings were faked (proved by you also posting this). I was merely pointing out that there is a delicious irony in someone who is so massively discredited then wading into a discussion on religion on the side of the existence of God.

If I were religious I would be really pissed off that you were attempting to fight my corner. That's all. Completely civil darling.

Maybe you should get into some sort of spiritual belief?

It might help you out with your stubborn, unforgiving hate towards me?

Oh, and by the way, the moon landings and 9/11 are not in anyway spiritual beliefs. You might be getting a tad confused there, but nonetheless, give it a break mate.

 

[beorhthelm]

I think it's you who's confused by the concept of non-belief, otherwise you'd not be on here debating the existence of spirituality?

You are claiming a massive explosion created the universe, without any hard evidence to back it up. That's a belief.

The non-believer is someone who wouldn't have an opinion on this, as they believe in nothing. Their view would be "I don't believe in anything" not " Atheism is correct". Atheism believes there is no God. That's fair enough, but you will have to accept it's a belief, especially if you're wrong....

there is plenty of evidence, the big bang theory provides testable experiment and predictions. of course you're just trying to conflate atheism with something else, to pin a "belief" on atheists so you can make the logically false arguement they just have an alterntive belief. big bang theory is not a belief system, its a scientific theory. one accepts the theory, the evidence and explainations or you refute them. it has nothing to do with non-belief in God. atheism != science.

all you are doing is proving the assertion made that you cant accept non-belief.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Child abuse has also happened in schools so do you blame education?

Of course not. The critical difference is I don’t expect an institutional wide coverup in education!

 

[LlcoolJ]

Maybe you should get into some sort of spiritual belief?

It might help you out with your stubborn, unforgiving hate towards me?

Oh, and by the way, the moon landings and 9/11 are not in anyway spiritual beliefs. You might be getting a tad confused there, but nonetheless, give it a break mate.

It's only pity I have for you, not hate. I note that you are using the usual troll reply of "ignore all the substance of the post and attempt deflection". It doesn't work by the way. It never works.

So, to actually reply to your points (as you don't do), no I don't need to "get into some sort of spiritual belief" as I'm perfectly happy as I am. I do the right thing on a daily basis. I don't upset people, I don't get angry, I'm polite and friendly, I'm a courteous driver, I give to charity (but I don't like to talk about it), I'll do a favour for anyone etc etc etc. Why do I need a "belief" to live my life correctly when I'm already doing it?

"Stubborn unforgiving hate". I've just pointed out that you're a liar and a fantasist. That's a fact, I don't have any hate for you whatsoever.

How am I getting "confused" when you haven't addressed my observations whatsoever? I merely made the point that someone who believes in crazy ****wittery re 9/11 and the moon landings might just not be the person I'd want in my corner if I were arguing about the existence of God.

You're well out of your depth as ever though so it doesn't really matter to me, mate.

Regards

LL XXX

 

[Surrey_Albion]

This is a great example of living by faith. George Muller founded the Orphan Homes in Bristol. He was disreputable before becoming a minister, but wanted to care for ophans once he became a minister. He never asked for a penny in donations, but prayed for the money to come in. Thousands of children went through the homes and were cared for.

https://www.about-bristol.co.uk/ash-01.asp

Wilberforth who helped the abolition of slavery not because he was against it but because he thought he wouldn't get into heaven if he didn't, there's something unnerving that it wasn't a human moral decision but a selfish one

 

[Bold Seagull]

What is it you believe in?

I personally believe in Omnism.

I think you have an issue with the semantics around the word 'belief', how that is applied and what it means in different contexts.

As an example, you attribute the statement 'I believe in the big bang' as the same meaning as 'I believe in God', and yet the two have different etymologies even though you are trying to suggest they are the same. They are different because of another word 'faith'.

To take this a step further, you can substitute 'believe' in the statement about the the big bang, with I accept the current theory of the origin of the universe as emerging from a big bang because of the scientific theory, experiments and data to support this theory. You cannot do that with the statement regarding God, because it is a requirement of faith to believe in something steadfast that can neither be proved or disproved without evidence.

Why try to attribute a very spiritual personal enlightened belief system to a meaning that actually is reductive to your own reasons for belief? I've heard it time and time again of an attempt to attribute non-believing as having the same quality of belief as believing, and it simply undermines your own reasons for your belief.

I am an atheist, but that is simply that I don't accept that God exists, there is no other classification, pigeon holing, or grouping into a system or anything - I simply don't accept God exists ergo I am an atheist. Do I believe in the big bang, no I accept that the big bang is the best theory based on observation, scientific theory, exportation and data to how the universe began.

If I were and Omnist, I feel I would want my beliefs far removed from those who only wish to take life on empirical evidence. Yet, you seem to want to make it a similar thing.