[Politics] The French election

[Soulman]

Yup. Whatever our views are on Le Pen, if Macron fails to heed this warning that something isn't right in France, I fear you are right.

I rarely agree with your posts, but as I posted a few pages back, this seems a very real outcome. However where I do disagree is the word "fear". I think the fear should be after yesterday's result.

 

[spring hall convert]

Interesting point. I haven't seen any information on this so just googled it. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23899195

On the broader point, I think it depends on how well Europe does economically. More prosperous times may offset/suppress likely growing cultural tensions but when the wheels eventually fall off I think it will end badly.

I hadn't read that specific article but "The United Nations (UN) estimates that in 2008 20 million people were displaced by climate change." is pretty stark.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

So protecting your borders is not common sense then, protecting the security, safety and culture of your country first, but also looking forward protecting the jobs you already have and what you can offer in the future because from where I am sitting the sheer numbers of people arriving all over Europe now, and the advance of robotics will only result in less jobs for everyone. The French have voted for exactly the same again, nothing will change mark my words.

Just two things -
1. protecting the security, safety and culture of your country first in ways which are the most likely to antagonise those who are most likely to do it damage is not necessarily common sense, and
2. Macron has been elected on a centrist ticket, but on a promise of massive cuts in public spending and so on and so forth, but at the same time cutting unemployment heavily - I haven't got time to look up the details. He doesn't have the MPs to enable him to do it, perhaps, but he does want to change things.

 

[Buzzer]

An interesting post. You reveal that you think all FN voters are racist.

I disagree with you. Some will be racists. And some xenophobes. Some are simply taken in by fake news and endless propaganda and some are victims of an uncaring system. Some feel marginalised and some may well have voted the way they did as a result of carefully considering the democratic deficits in European institutions, or the corruption of the worlds we live in. Some just can't stand the supine politicians and dodgy chancers who rule our lives. And some are simply ignorant. There is a whole heap of reasons, similar to those that applied here. Which is all I said.

The "oooh, he's calling us racists" is entirely your own invention. I never have and I never will. But if it makes you happy...

Oh, do stop with the protestations. I've quoted you twice in this thread where you've clearly insinuated that the Brexiteers are FN supporters and de facto supporters of a racist party.

 

[Mellotron]

I rarely agree with your posts, but as I posted a few pages back, this seems a very real outcome. However where I do disagree is the word "fear". I think the fear should be after yesterday's result.

Who's more likely to inflame racial tensions and cause more problems? Would certainly be more fearful if Le Pen had got in.

 

[Triggaaar]

35% of French voters chose a NATIONAL FRONT candidate.

Indeed, pretty worrying.

 

[Berty23]

That leave.eu tweet is bizarre. Saying that France surrendered again. The thing that confuses me is that this time they rejected fascism. Wouldn't it have been a surrender to fascism as per 1940 if they had voted for le pen? Am I missing something here?

Given the vote was two thirds to a third and people think that in five years le pen will get in then doesn't that suggest a vote that was never binding which was split 52 48 deserves another go in a couple of years......tin hat grabbed.

 

[Triggaaar]

Votes for le Penn came from the north and the south, I wonder why?. Clueless French for voting him in, nothing will change for them.

You're saying the clueless French voted in Macron?

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Oh, do stop with the protestations. I've quoted you twice in this thread where you've clearly insinuated that the Brexiteers are FN supporters and de facto supporters of a racist party.

Utterly barmy. Virtually the entire world accepts that there are parallels between what drives the populist movements in different parts of the western world. If you want to disagree with all that, fine - why not set up a discussion group of like-minded individuals to talk over the details? I know a vacant phone box.

 

[Buzzer]

Utterly barmy. Virtually the entire world accepts that there are parallels between what drives the populist movements in different parts of the western world. If you want to disagree with all that, fine - why not set up a discussion group of like-minded individuals to talk over the details? I know a vacant phone box.

Or maybe I'll just disagree with you here. I'm proof that your claims of parallels with Brexiteers and NF supporters are specious generalisations at best. It sounds like it's you that needs to stick your head out of your little echo chamber. Your habit of dropping people into neat little boxes might make it easier for you to jump to your ludicrous conclusions but it really doesn't help anyone.

 

[lawros left foot]

Interesting that, during this period of direct rule by Brussels: Blair was able take us into a disastrous war and Brown/Cameron managed to destroy public finances/services (delete as applicable).

Admittedly a lot of legislation has come from the European Parliament (of which we are a voting member) in areas like basic minimum levels of employment rights and the environment, safety standards etc. but these still gave our government plenty of scope to grow the zero-hours contract economy. I am not sure that working class Brexit voters were looking for even less employment security from the decision. However if they were looking for an increase in well paid, secure employment then they should have looked more carefully at the people financing and supporting the Leave vote.

Have you got any examples of major areas of legislation in which Brussels has subverted the democratic will of the British people? I don't think bananas and under-powered vacuum cleaners really count.

No answers for this post yet?

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Or maybe I'll just disagree with you here. I'm proof that your claims of parallels with Brexiteers and NF supporters are specious generalisations at best. It sounds like it's you that needs to stick your head out of your little echo chamber. Your habit of dropping people into neat little boxes might make it easier for you to jump to your ludicrous conclusions but it really doesn't help anyone.

Fair enough, you have every right to think that there are no parallels between, say, Le Pen's underlying message to the French people and UKIP's message to the British. You also have every right to claim that I am calling you a racist.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

No answers for this post yet?

I would say that the most troubling areas of eu interference are in the future. That is if it continues with its mantra of ever-closer union which would result in a common foreign policy and army. This policy is proving unpopular in any case whether in Britain or in the eu so perhaps the eu will respond to calls from Macron etc that major reform is necessary. Luckily, previous governments in Britain negotiated various opt-outs but we were still net contributors to a project that was not widely admired here. I think the eu has made some good laws and most probably some bad but it was where it was heading that was the major problem.

 

[Buzzer]

Fair enough, you have every right to think that there are no parallels between, say, Le Pen's underlying message to the French people and UKIP's message to the British. You also have every right to claim that I am calling you a racist.

Not everyone who voted Brexit is a UKIP supporter. That there is one of your big mistakes. You seem to think Brexit and UKIP are interchangeable. I would have thought my comments about Le Pen and Farage would have made that blindingly obvious that it ain't necessarily so.

 

[nicko31]

I'd be more worried about the effects of global warming on global migration by 2050. Something that this current wave of nationalism seems to want to sweep well under the carpet.

Yeap global warming is the main game going forward, and will have a profound on effect immigration for decades to come. The worse drought in 900 years contributed to the war in Syria.

But a lot of the UKIP style bigots are simply too old to care about this stuff

 

[lawros left foot]

I would say that the most troubling areas of eu interference are in the future. That is if it continues with its mantra of ever-closer union which would result in a common foreign policy and army. This policy is proving unpopular in any case whether in Britain or in the eu so perhaps the eu will respond to calls from Macron etc that major reform is necessary. Luckily, previous governments in Britain negotiated various opt-outs but we were still net contributors to a project that was not widely admired here. I think the eu has made some good laws and most probably some bad but it was where it was heading that was the major problem.

So, thats still a no then

 

[Soulman]

Not everyone who voted Brexit is a UKIP supporter. That there is one of your big mistakes. You seem to think Brexit and UKIP are interchangeable. I would have thought my comments about Le Pen and Farage would have made that blindingly obvious that it ain't necessarily so.

If the poster is, let's say not bright enough to realise that UKIP had just over 4 million voters, yet over 17million voted out, then there is little hope.

 

[Soulman]

But a lot of the UKIP style bigots are simply too old to care about this stuff

Who is the bigot?.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

So, thats still a no then

Then perhaps I was the wrong person to answer. Since I was a child I have watched the eu morph from a common market to something more integrated, that is in spite of all the protestations from Jacques Delores onwards that this would not be the end goal. Lies upon lies. Doesn't mean I oppose all that the eu has done, but I dislike the lack of local accountability, the huge wastage and policies like the CAP which was a massive gravy train to undeserving farmers (not all farmers are undeserving!) The march towards a superstate is alarming and without modern precedent. Moving towards such 'big' and unaccountable government is very dangerous and has been, along other factors, one of the main fuels for the rise in populism and nationalism. I do not think the eu project will end peacefully if it continues to integrate and does not heed the warning signs.

 

[BrickTamland]

So protecting your borders is not common sense then, protecting the security, safety and culture of your country first, but also looking forward protecting the jobs you already have and what you can offer in the future because from where I am sitting the sheer numbers of people arriving all over Europe now, and the advance of robotics will only result in less jobs for everyone. The French have voted for exactly the same again, nothing will change mark my words.

Protecting their borders from people born in or already residing in France. This line of argument always confuses me given the evidence available about those who have committed the more recent well known attacks. To be honest I don't know how much affect closing borders will or won't have on terror levels, here or in France but it is clear much much more work needs to be done in social terms about the inner workings of the countries and cultures themselves (not just border policy or banning burkas), something I wouldn't trust Farage, Le Pen or any other far right leaders to be in charge of. A small caveat to that last point would be that for what it's worth I don't really trust many on the current political scene with that responsibility