The Enemy Within: Miner's strike and the Tories today

[Machiavelli]

Probably not ,the police have ALWAYS lied and covered up to protect themselves, whatever force has found themselves in the shit, do you really think thatcher smiled on hearing the news of the Hillsborough disaster ? a simple yes or no will do.

No, but what has that got to do with anything?

 

[Beach Hut]

Scargill was out of control at that time and sadly had a personal agenda however he picked the wrong person to pick a fight with which was technically the establishment.

 

[Lenny Rider]

What do you base that assumption, that workers were overpaid, on?
Are you suggesting British workers workers should recieve the same pay as Chinese workers, £25 - £30 a month?

In the 1970's and 80's with the help of the unions the wage structure at a number of jobs became unrealistic and unsustainable, car workers, print workers, dockers, other factory jobs, it was a recipe for disaster and this country has spent years paying for it indirectly.
There's a huge difference between a living wage and, as a former printer has said on this very thread, taking the pixx.

 

[Pickles]

In the 1970's and 80's with the help of the unions the wage structure at a number of jobs became unrealistic and unsustainable, car workers, print workers, dockers, other factory jobs, it was a recipe for disaster and this country has spent years paying for it indirectly.
There's a huge difference between a living wage and, as a former printer has said on this very thread, taking the pixx.

Ian,

Would you like my 8 year old boy to come and sweep your chimney again this year?

 

[BLOCK F]

'This country' is comprised of various strata with mutually exclusive interests, Ian. If the miners had won we would certainly be a much fairer and humane kind of society where manufacturing still happened and there were a **** of a lot less coffee shops and call centres. In my opinion a majority of people, including many who subjectively considered themselves opposed to the miners' struggle would, in objective economic and social terms, be in a far better place than they are now. Although maybe not in Worthing Hope all's good mate.

'If the miners had won we would certainly be a much fairer and humane kind of society' etc.
Don't know how you work this one out. If the miners had won, it would have given more power to the likes of Scargill to ruin the country.He did no favours for the miners or any other workers; he was a nutter.
There would have been no winners, plenty of industrial strife, and you can bet, that in the long term, the biggest losers would be what used to be classed as ' the ordinary working class'.

 

[Igzilla]

There comes a point where some industries are just too big for the government to subsidise and make efficient. There is no incentive for the workers to streamline production if they are happy to rely on, what was basically, state handouts. Every time they went on strike the government gave in to their demands, and that is not sustainable especially when it was cheaper to import.

On top of that, homes were being fitted with gas central heating so the demand was in decline on street level. We still use coal power stations though, and some mining communities took ownership and responsibility of the pits using entrepreneurial principles, changing the business model, and made them profitable, so that was an option that many didn’t grasp at the time.

It's a dirty fuel anyway and the less we use the better.

I'm sorry, but this is bollocks. "The workers" have no control over how the industry is run. That was the suits, i.e. Ian MacGregor, who decides what capital expenditure is required, what working practices are implemented and how the government subsidies are spent.

I do agree with your final sentence though. Just wish it was achieved in a more collaborative, compassionate way. But then again, what did Thatcher know about compassion? Compassion never made any money.

 

[Lenny Rider]

Ian,

Would you like my 8 year old boy to come and sweep your chimney again this year?

Only if he cuts my lawn as well.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

So I was born in '85 and have never really managed to piece the miners' strike together.

But it seems to me that a lot of people, my age and younger, have a great deal of antipathy to the Conservative's because of this time.

Seems like most people are agreed that the mines were loss making and so drained the government coffers in trying to keep them open. Seems like most people would say that Thatcher had 'bought' the Police, who were very heavy handed. I once dated a girl whose northern father delighted in tales of 'gravel rashing' miners in the north of England.

So my simplistic take on this is: shutting them down was the right way to go, but the mistake was demonizing the miners ('the enemy within') and a lack of interest in their future employment possibilities.

1) So, have I got this right? What am I missing?

2) Seems like there are a lot of young people who weren't around and have grown up in a completely different world who 'have never forgiven' the Tories for this period. When will the Tories slip loose from this association, if ever?

What you're missing is that we had the most venomous bitch of an PM in the entire history of the UK. It wasn't 'The Tories', most of whom were the same soft set of public schoolboys with an inherent sense of fair play we've always had. Thatcher, on the other hand, was one evil institutionalised psychopath. For better or worse, took a seriously nasty piece of work to slap down Arthur Scargill.

 

[looney]

What you're missing is that we had the most venomous bitch of an PM in the entire history of the UK. It wasn't 'The Tories', most of whom were the same soft set of public schoolboys with an inherent sense of fair play we've always had. Thatcher, on the other hand, was one evil institutionalised psychopath. For better or worse, took a seriously nasty piece of work to slap down Arthur Scargill.

Thats a load of bollox, you should read Nigel Lawsons book "View from number 11" where it was quite often thatch stopping the PS boys ****ing over everyone in sight. But that doesn't sit well with the leftwing hate figure story as theyve lost the argument and are just left with their Demon, so to speak.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Thats a load of bollox, you should read Nigel Lawsons book "View from number 11" where it was quite often thatch stopping the PS boys ****ing over everyone in sight.

Well he would say that, wouldn't he?

 

[symyjym]

I'm sorry, but this is bollocks. "The workers" have no control over how the industry is run. That was the suits, i.e. Ian MacGregor, who decides what capital expenditure is required, what working practices are implemented and how the government subsidies are spent.

I do agree with your final sentence though. Just wish it was achieved in a more collaborative, compassionate way. But then again, what did Thatcher know about compassion? Compassion never made any money.

With regards to my statement "There is no incentive for the workers to streamline production" meaning privatisation, in most cases, makes services better because it is based on accountability as well as a financial incentive to become efficient. The railways, BT, electric, gas and the postal service haven’t been affected badly by privatisation and there is no way a government can, or are qualified, to run these old British institutions, it all needed modernisation. I know lots of people moan about privatisation but the positives outweigh the negatives.

How can anyone be compassionate when having to fight against Scargill?

 

[Igzilla]

With regards to my statement "There is no incentive for the workers to streamline production" meaning privatisation, in most cases, makes services better because it is based on accountability as well as a financial incentive to become efficient. The railways, BT, electric, gas and the postal service haven’t been affected badly by privatisation and there is no way a government can, or are qualified, to run these old British institutions, it all needed modernisation. I know lots of people moan about privatisation but the positives outweigh the negatives.

How can anyone be compassionate when having to fight against Scargill?

I think privatisation is a double edged sword and is not clear cut in its effectiveness. The Post Office seems to be turning a profit, but the railways? LOTS of subsidy still being thrown at them, and with the revision on Southern's timetable this week highlighting their poor performance, I would contend that not much has changed. Electric and Gas, I don't see much difference as an end consumer, so I guess it's all hidden in the balance sheet. BT? Can't comment as not a customer and haven't been since 1994 when they treated me abominably.

Agreed Scargill was not a good'un, but Thatcher will always be the Snatcher,

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

If we ever play Donny or Barnsley again, do a detour to Goldthorpe or any of the nearby pit villages. If Boro don't go up, likewise Easington. See what happened to those places, and many, many more. ....
UK miners produced some of the cheapest coal in Europe at the pithead. The reason some European coal was cheaper on the market is because other European countries' governments subsidised their coal industries far more than ours did, because they rightly saw the social aspect of closures as part of the overall picture, not just 'economics'.

It was ironic that Maggie told the general public that Polish coal was cheaper to import than what we could dig it out of the ground for here in the UK but failed to mention the massive state subsidies provided by a country behind the Iron Curtain.

 

[symyjym]

I think privatisation is a double edged sword and is not clear cut in its effectiveness. The Post Office seems to be turning a profit, but the railways? LOTS of subsidy still being thrown at them, and with the revision on Southern's timetable this week highlighting their poor performance, I would contend that not much has changed. Electric and Gas, I don't see much difference as an end consumer, so I guess it's all hidden in the balance sheet. BT? Can't comment as not a customer and haven't been since 1994 when they treated me abominably.

Agreed Scargill was not a good'un, but Thatcher will always be the Snatcher,

I know she is Marmite but she was great on Spitting image and couldn't be bullied by a cabinet full of men. Like her or not she was a fascinating part of British history and she led the way for women in politics.

 

[Igzilla]

I know she is Marmite but she was great on Spitting image and couldn't be bullied by a cabinet full of men. Like her or not she was a fascinating part of British history and she led the way for women in politics.

I agree with the Marmite, bullying and fascinating part. She did lead the way, in as far as she was the first female Prime Minister. As far as I recall, she did absolutely nothing towards equality. She was more masculine than the wets with which she packed her cabinets with. How many female cabinets ministers did she appoint in her 11 years in Downing Street? She may be many things, but a feminist icon she is not

 

[symyjym]

I agree with the Marmite, bullying and fascinating part. She did lead the way, in as far as she was the first female Prime Minister. As far as I recall, she did absolutely nothing towards equality. She was more masculine than the wets with which she packed her cabinets with. How many female cabinets ministers did she appoint in her 11 years in Downing Street? She may be many things, but a feminist icon she is not

I doubt there were many women that could have stepped up to the plate of cabinet ministers back then.

Now you have suggested that she wasn't a feminist icon I found this article http://www.theguardian.com/politics...n/2012/jan/05/margaret-thatcher-feminist-icon

This is a quote from it "Girls who grew up when she was running the country were able to imagine leadership as a female quality in a way that girls today struggle to do. And for that reason she is still a figure that feminists would be unwise to dismiss."

Not my words

 

[OGH's Libido]

I've loved reading this, all of it. Probably the biggest surprise was how political (ideological?) you lot are saying it was (I know, i'm very naive!) - but really, shutting down profitable mines (Newcastle in particular, someone mentioned) - that's pretty nasty!

So I'm getting a good idea of Thatcher's (Reaganist) conviction of the superiority a small government. But what I still don't get is Scargil. A lot of you on both sides of the political divide are characterising him as some kind of nutter. Was it this simple? What drove him?

If Scargil was perceived to be some sort of communist nutter, was this seen to in the context of British politics only, or against a wider West Vs Soviet Russia/Communist stuff? If the latter, it seems desperately sad. It's like we just forgot who we were and turned on ourselves.

 

[Lenny Rider]

I've loved reading this, all of it. Probably the biggest surprise was how political (ideological?) you lot are saying it was (I know, i'm very naive!) - but really, shutting down profitable mines (Newcastle in particular, someone mentioned) - that's pretty nasty!

So I'm getting a good idea of Thatcher's (Reaganist) conviction of the superiority a small government. But what I still don't get is Scargil. A lot of you on both sides of the political divide are characterising him as some kind of nutter. Was it this simple? What drove him?

If Scargil was perceived to be some sort of communist nutter, was this seen to in the context of British politics only, or against a wider West Vs Soviet Russia/Communist stuff? If the latter, it seems desperately sad. It's like we just forgot who we were and turned on ourselves.

I worked with a lady in 1982 of mature years, she actually retired that year, at 60, she said when she saw footage of Scargill it reminded her of the pathe news reels of Hitler. He needed stopping, Thatcher was the person to do it, unfortunately with it came a number of other casualties.

 

[Hampster Gull]

A necessary part of our regeneration from europes basket case to a strong economy

 

[KZNSeagull]

If Scargil was perceived to be some sort of communist nutter, was this seen to in the context of British politics only, or against a wider West Vs Soviet Russia/Communist stuff? If the latter, it seems desperately sad. It's like we just forgot who we were and turned on ourselves.

He was/is a Marxist and is a now member of the UK Stalin Society. The NUM received funding from the Soviet Union and reportedly had links with Libya. Many people perceived the Miners Strike as an attempt to start a revolution, including Thatcher, so that gives you a context on where she was coming from!