[Finance] The end of Notes and Coins?

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

I personally find it a lot easier to manage my spending through cards.

I find it good to know how much I've spent and where. Where I'm spending too much or too frequently, etc.

For sure, totally agree. Tho that's all retrospective. Doesn't help in real time

- Take £50 to football or the pub? Spend £50 at football or the pub. Out of money. Go home. Or go that extra mile to cashpoint to maybe make you think twice

- Take Contactless Magic Wand to football or the pub? Just keep waving it around while you're caught in the moment and having a mighty fine time

We've all been there, and IMHO it's not healthy, either for an individual or for society

 

[Creaky]

I personally find it a lot easier to manage my spending through cards.

I find it useful to know how much I've spent and where. Where I'm spending too much or too frequently, etc.

I know a lot of people are guilty of not going through their statements though. Not always their fault as everything is encouraged to go "paperless". I make a point of opting out of paperless statements and actually reading through them when they arrive through the post.

As do the banks and card companies who are more than happy to monetise the data they collect about customer spending.

https://www.pymnts.com/news/banking/2019/monetize-data-analytics/

 

[LlcoolJ]

One big reason not to love cashless.. All the debit card payments to Red Lion, Amex/Sodexho, The Railway etc can be tracked and traced and eventually end up with 'Well Mr R, we've checked your drinking history, and your spend on booze is too much, so your going to the back of the NHS queue i'm afraid..'

And more importantly, how the **** are you supposed to go for a few cheeky pints without the Mrs seeing it on your bank statement? Fortunately, despite some of the predictions on here, it's not going to happen any time soon.

I refer people back to the point that the black market is worth well over £150bn a year in the UK. That is MASSIVE. It's total naivety to apply your lifestyle to the case and presume that everyone else is the same.

So YOU might not use cash often, or at all, but there is a huge part of the economy (at least 20%) that does. You just don't see it most of the time, or ever. But it doesn't stop it being there and it wont stop it continuing to be there.

As I said before, crypto has and will take some of the place of cash. But until it's more mainstream, less volatile and more secure (if you've read about Bitcoin theft, market manipulation and scams like Onecoin) cash will still be the choice of the small to medium level gangster/criminal. Doesn't matter to the top boys like Putin obviously but lower down the chain, physical money is still a big thing.

 

[Creaky]

Good stuff. You seem to be presenting this as if it's a bad thing. Why?

I’ve not suggested it is either a good or a bad “thing”.

The fact that banks do use the data in this way simply reinforces my belief that the idea of a “cashless society” is not something that is being promoted for the customers’ benefit but rather that of the banks and other large institutions.

 

[Creaky]

It's for the bank's benefits and the customer's benefit. Everyone's a winner from this kind of modernisation.

It's not even being pushed by the powers that be. People are going contactless because they genuinely want to.

Of course customers benefit from the availability of cashless payments and online banking but explain to me the benefit customers receive from - the reduction in ATMs, some locations not accepting cash, closing of bank branches, banks reducing staff numbers, system failure etc?

There are benefits to both systems and disadvantages - banks though seem insistent on reducing customer choice.

Maybe you can explain how it is in the customers’ interest to reduce choice.

 

[BN9 BHA]

Unbelievably the only place open currently I know that will still only accept cash as payment is............my GP surgery.

I'm trying to work out what payments would be made here, I'm sure I have never paid any money at a GP surgery.

 

[Justice]

Changed mine after he insisted I paid cash, it became annoying to draw cash out and get change just for him. He reckoned I couldn’t have his bank details for security reasons!

I also work a cab in London part time (at best) and take 70% card now compared to 2 years ago when it was 40% card. Doesn’t bother me as not a fan of carrying excess cash, certainly in some of the areas I serve.

The only issue I have is TFL insist that a TFL approved card reader is installed in the back (3-5%) and we get an extra 0.20p on the flag for this. Funny enough most of the approved vendors have links to World Pay who happen to have a seat on the TFL board [emoji848]

I use an Izettle that I keep in front which charges 1.75%.

TFL compliance have tried it on with drivers stating we must use the terminal in the back but don’t actually have a leg to stand on as although we must have a TFL approved device fitted and working, they cannot force us to use it as card isn’t actually legal tender, which will need primary legalisation to fix this point.

I do miss the days when many of my colleagues were cash only as used to get some decent fares (going home jobs) south of London for card paying customers at the expense of the cash only mob.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A cabby that doesn’t have enough cash to pay a window cleaner

 

[sparkie]

I still think cash is a great backup for when there will be hostile cyber attacks on the power grid, or telecommunications networks.

 

[ManOfSussex]

I'm trying to work out what payments would be made here, I'm sure I have never paid any money at a GP surgery.

Prescription charges.

 

[Creaky]

We still have a choice. Cash options are still almost everywhere. Cash is naturally being phased out, and rightly so.

The point is that cash is currently an option and it doesn't have to be. In the near future it outright shouldn't be.

In a cashless society ATM's won't be needed. Everyone will have several cashless options (although a vast majority of people already do). Losing branches and staff is symptomatic of the modernisation of almost every industry - banking is no different. In regards to a system failure - can't think of a single scenario where I wouldn't be able to pay cashlessly.

The reality is that nobody likes change, especially the older we get, we always prefer the familiar. But cash really is an obsolete "technology" now - it has become an outdated and inefficient way of doing things. People SHOULD be encouraged to go contactless and to be honest I don't think they are being encouraged enough.

None of that explains the benefit customers will get from lack of choice.

How is it in the customers’ interest to be unable to buy or sell if/when the system goes down?

How is it in the customers’ interest for banks to be able to deny access to their funds without jumping through hoops?

How is it in the interest of the least advantaged of society, (homeless, mentally disabled, poorest etc.), to have no means to buy?

How is it in the interest of society in general to give total control of the monetary system, including all the data associated with that control, to retail banks? Do you really have total confidence in them?

You can quote all the benefits of an electronic banking system, (banks are very good at doing that), but that doesn’t address any of the above questions.

Just because there is a ‘modern’ way of doing things doesn’t mean you have to do away with the ‘old fashioned’ method. I’m not suggesting for one minute that we stop electronic banking, (personally I use it most of the time), simply that we don’t limit the use of cash alongside it.

 

[BN9 BHA]

Prescription charges.

i see, on site pharmacy I guess.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Prescription charges.

My GP surgery accepts card payments only for prescriptions. I don’t know whether that’s only since Covid.
The only cash I have used in recent months (prior to lockdown) has been for the dog walker, barber’s and for football programmes. As we emerge from isolation none of those will be necessary.

 

[beorhthelm]

- What makes you think the banking system can or will go down? If it did, then society would collapse - the role of cash would be just as useless in such a scenario.

you seem to only consider wholesale banking system collapse. what about more mundane day or two outage? they do happen.

 

[LlcoolJ]

- All data is a good thing. With cash there is next to none of it. Yes, the banks have the data, but we genuinely have great data protection in this country. I don't believe anything malicious can be done with the data of our spending anyway, but its existence can be extremely useful.

Amazing.

 

[Swansman]

I'll comment on all of these concerns - which I believe aren't taking into account where modern technology is, and where it is going to be over the next decade.

- What makes you think the banking system can or will go down? If it did, then society would collapse - the role of cash would be just as useless in such a scenario.

- Unsure about your second comment as well. Why would banks make us jump through hoops to make a cashless payment, any more than withdrawing cash? I currently have my mortgage, savings and all my money in my pocket in digital form. I can transfer money to anyone in the world within seconds without leaving my seat. It would be far more of a headache to attain cash for any kind of transaction.

- In a cashless society, all people would have access to a bank card, including the homeless. Even now, the homeless already have smartphones more often than not. A cashless society won't affect them, particularly once society adapts even further.

- All data is a good thing. With cash there is next to none of it. Yes, the banks have the data, but we genuinely have great data protection in this country. I don't believe anything malicious can be done with the data of our spending anyway, but its existence can be extremely useful.

If a modern technology is considerably better than an older method which has no real advantage, then the older method becomes obsolete. It will either naturally or strategically be removed from the market. Think VHS, analogue TV, the typewriter, faximile. The end of cash is coming too.

So if the banks say "ok, we now have a -5% interest on your savings account. We will be taking 5% of your savings every month", what do you do? Today you could take withdraw all your cash and hide it in your sheet, so the banks have no option but to give you a decent deal. If cash is removed, you no longer have that option. Do you think the banks are too moral to make money from this opportunity?

As for "all data is good", I assume you believe that all evil of the world died in 1945? Unfortunately history says different - every century there is "evil" despots, governments or kings doing devilish shit;

If we take the go-to example of Hitler, what opportunities would any jew have to hide or survive if he had big data available? What opportunities would German leftists have had to arrange escapes or reliefs to Jews if all their assets where frozen by the bank?

And if we take a more modern example - if Donald Trump had these powers - total control over everyones economy AND intentions, would you consider it impossible that he would freeze i.e. the assets of huge Democratic donors?

The "all data is good" is based on the idea that there will never in future of mankind be anyone abusing their power - and that is a very optimistic view.

 

[Creaky]

I'll comment on all of these concerns - which I believe aren't taking into account where modern technology is, and where it is going to be over the next decade.

- What makes you think the banking system can or will go down? If it did, then society would collapse - the role of cash would be just as useless in such a scenario.

- Unsure about your second comment as well. Why would banks make us jump through hoops to make a cashless payment, any more than withdrawing cash? I currently have my mortgage, savings and all my money in my pocket in digital form. I can transfer money to anyone in the world within seconds without leaving my seat. It would be far more of a headache to attain cash for any kind of transaction.

- In a cashless society, all people would have access to a bank card, including the homeless. Even now, the homeless already have smartphones more often than not. A cashless society won't affect them, particularly once society adapts even further.

- All data is a good thing. With cash there is next to none of it. Yes, the banks have the data, but we genuinely have great data protection in this country. I don't believe anything malicious can be done with the data of our spending anyway, but its existence can be extremely useful.

If a modern technology is considerably better than an older method which has no real advantage, then the older method becomes obsolete. It will either naturally or strategically be removed from the market. Think VHS, analogue TV, the typewriter, faximile. The end of cash is coming too.

What makes me think a banking system can go down - experience - https://www.financialadvice.co.uk/news/1/bankaccounts/11005/barclays-bank-system-crashes.html - This is something of a rarity for Barclays bank which has an excellent track record in the UK with regards to system security and system reliability. However, it does highlight the UK consumer's dependence upon Internet banking, telephone banking and cash machines. The good old fashioned Barclays bank branch has now disappeared in many areas of the UK leaving customers literally stranded with no money.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49412055

Has a ten pound note ever rung you up to check if you really want to buy something, or refused to be changed into another currency when on holiday?

What good is a bank card to an adult with the mind of a seven year old? My wife looks after such individuals and they are quite capable of using cash and enjoy doing so.

1.7 million people in the UK don’t have a bank account - unsurprisingly the vast majority of these live in households with a total income of less than £17,500 - nearly half of these don’t have a smartphone or other means of access to the internet.

I notice you didn’t address the question of trust in the retail banking sector.

Certainly there are numerous examples of where technology has overtaken existing methods but very rarely has such advantages actually stopped the use of the old one. I can drive a horse and cart if I wished, travel by rail rather than air, read a real book and so on.

 

[Swansman]

I'm sorry, but the banks can't all of a sudden decide to take 5% of everyone's money. Banking is free in this country - and it always will be - but there will always be other places, investments, savings opportunities... or banks... to move one's money if this impossible scenario you are suggesting occurred.

In regards to your data point, yes I'm sure if we had an extreme totalitarian government who wished to carry out racial cleansing on a genocidal scale, then all the data that exists about all of us could be used for evil... however we are way past the point of no return in terms of our data being freely available now. Fortunately, even though we may have incompetant governments, they are not "evil"... the use of our data is almost always used for research, or to evolve the economy. If you're worried about someone having your spending data, then you would probably be terrified to know what those thousands of tracking cookies you have on your devices know about you, from Facebook, Google and so on.

You are incredibly naive.

 

[beorhthelm]

Banking app down? Use a card.
VISA down? Use banking or payment app, or alternate card.
Phone network down? Use card, or wi-fi.
Wi-fi off? Use phone network.

you cant just switch between apps and cards, unless in your brave new world people signing up to mulitple services. same with Visa/mastercard, they do have outages and people dont have alternatives. wifi depends on phone network for connectivity upstream, if the phone network goes down in a street, town, region no payments are possible. this isnt hypothetical, i've experiences a few times. the systems are not robust enough to sustain full cashless society.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

I'm sorry, but the banks can't all of a sudden decide to take 5% of everyone's money. Banking is free in this country - and it always will be - but there will always be other places, investments, savings opportunities... or banks... to move one's money if this impossible scenario you are suggesting occurred.

In regards to your data point, yes I'm sure if we had an extreme totalitarian government who wished to carry out racial cleansing on a genocidal scale, then all the data that exists about all of us could be used for evil... however we are way past the point of no return in terms of our data being freely available now. Fortunately, even though we may have incompetant governments, they are not "evil"... the use of our data is almost always used for research, or to evolve the economy. If you're worried about someone having your spending data, then you would probably be terrified to know what those thousands of tracking cookies you have on your devices know about you, from Facebook, Google and so on.

I do not share your optimism that banking will always be free in this country. More likely we will adopt the practices of other countries where it is free provided you have a certain level of savings or a mortgage with your bank.

 

[Creaky]

I do not share your optimism that banking will always be free in this country. More likely we will adopt the practices of other countries where it is free provided you have a certain level of savings or a mortgage with your bank.

The idea that banking is free in the UK is a myth. It’s only free if your account is empty.