[Albion] The Dunk sending off

[Bold Seagull]

It was a stone wall yellow in the first half when Dunk hacked their player down and then he pushes a bloke over in the second half on the back of that first yellow, gave the ref no choice whatsoever

A push isn't an automatic yellow. The only automatic yellow in that incident was for Jota for deliberating stopping a free kick being taken and kicking the ball away.

The ref did have a choice. The choice he had to make was whether the push was 'reckless' that was the choice under the laws of the game. It was never hard enough to make a man fall over, so shouldn't have been a yellow card. In the context of an opposing player preventing a player taking a free kick then it definitely shouldn't have been a yellow.

I agree the first yellow was stone wall. The ref has been suckered into the second. I don't really blame Dunk for trying to get the game going for our free kick.

This is very similar in a lot of ways to how the ref saw the Routledge incident when Carl Henry assaulted him. He aimed the slightest kick/retaliation back at Henry and got a red card. Those like yourself would no doubt say Routledge was rightly sent off because he gave the ref the 'opportunity' to send him off by showing some retaliation. Thankfully the FA actually saw sense on that one and rescinded the red card, because clearly Routledge's subsequent shove and slight kick were not 'reckless'. It is an important distinction in applying the laws of the game.

 

[Clive Walker]

100% red card. proffessional foul in the first half (although I thought he made the right choice) = def yellow card.
pushing player to the ground (a bit easily) out of frustrartion = def yellow card.

silly boy, needs to learn as when it happened I said to my old man "that is that and we have not chance now. Ruined the game for me"

 

[Clive Walker]

A push isn't an automatic yellow. The only automatic yellow in that incident was for Jota for deliberating stopping a free kick being taken and kicking the ball away.

The ref did have a choice. The choice he had to make was whether the push was 'reckless' that was the choice under the laws of the game. It was never hard enough to make a man fall over, so shouldn't have been a yellow card. In the context of an opposing player preventing a player taking a free kick then it definitely shouldn't have been a yellow.

I agree the first yellow was stone wall. The ref has been suckered into the second. I don't really blame Dunk for trying to get the game going for our free kick.

This is very similar in a lot of ways to how the ref saw the Routledge incident when Carl Henry assaulted him. He aimed the slightest kick/retaliation back at Henry and got a red card. Those like yourself would no doubt say Routledge was rightly sent off because he gave the ref the 'opportunity' to send him off by showing some retaliation. Thankfully the FA actually saw sense on that one and rescinded the red card, because clearly Routledge's subsequent shove and slight kick were not 'reckless'. It is an important distinction in applying the laws of the game.

The push was 100% worthy of a yellow.

 

[mejonaNO12 aka riskit]

How is this EVEN being debated

Imagine if it was one of their players and they WERN'T sent off.

 

[Mellotron]

The whole officiating team were awful. That lino should have waved for the foul on Dunk which resulted in him shoving the Brentford player.

This. Dunk got understandably frustrated at the ineptitude of the lino right next to him, as their player attempted to MOUNT Lewis for about 5 seconds. Ref completely lost control of the game from that point on, didn't seem to understand the rules of the game and kept putting his whistle to his mouth then changing his mind. Looked out of his depth.

 

[Bold Seagull]

The push was 100% worthy of a yellow.

If it was, we'd be seeing 15 bookings a game for pushes. We don't because it wasn't 100% a yellow.

 

[Clive Walker]

If it was, we'd be seeing 15 bookings a game for pushes. We don't because it wasn't 100% a yellow.

you wouldn't because corners/ freekicks and the activity in the penalty box with 15-20 bodies all competing for position is very different to a push on a player while play is halted and isolated from any other reason/need

 

[Bold Seagull]

you wouldn't because corners/ freekicks and the activity in the penalty box with 15-20 bodies all competing for position is very different to a push on a player while play is halted and isolated from any other reason/need

I'm not talking about just corners etc. There are pushes throughout a game, often to get a ball back to take a throw in, or take a free kick. Happens all the time. Normally an opposing player doesn't throw themselves to the floor. That is the only thing that got Dunk a 2nd yellow. That push wouldn't have sent over an 8 year old let alone a professional athlete.

Ask yourself this, if Jota hadn't thrown himself to the floor, do you think it was still a yellow, just for a simple push?

 

[Clive Walker]

I'm not talking about just corners etc. There are pushes throughout a game, often to get a ball back to take a throw in, or take a free kick. Happens all the time. Normally an opposing player doesn't throw themselves to the floor. That is the only thing that got Dunk a 2nd yellow. That push wouldn't have sent over an 8 year old let alone a professional athlete.

Ask yourself this, if Jota hadn't thrown himself to the floor, do you think it was still a yellow, just for a simple push?

Agree to some extent though the act of this push was so obvious.

but ask yourself this. If Dunk had not pushed Jota would he have thrown himself to the floor?

the answer to this reveals the reason why dunk is to blame. Remember Jota received a yellow also!

 

[Bold Seagull]

Agree to some extent though the act of this push was so obvious.

but ask yourself this. If Dunk had not pushed Jota would he have thrown himself to the floor?

the answer to this reveals the reason why dunk is to blame. Remember Jota received a yellow also!

Jota received rightly a yellow as determined by the laws of the game for preventing a free kick being taken and kicking the ball away. There is absolutely no dispute over his yellow.

I don't disagree with anyone saying Dunk was wrong to put himself in the position of being sent off, but that doesn't mean we can't be critical of the decision on it's own merits.

I had this same discussion in the Seven Stars after. A push is not a yellow card in the laws of the game. People often say 'if you raise your hands' but that is not in the laws of the game either. A push is only a yellow card if it is deemed reckless or violent conduct (where it could also be a red). In the context of trying to get the ball to take a free kick, I think the referee got it wrong. It wasn't reckless. The player who committed the foul was Jota. The player looking to disrupt the game and kick the ball away was Jota. The person who was just looking to get on with things was Dunk. Over enthusiastically yes, but not a yellow for me.

Referees have to make decisions in context. Had Dunk been aggressively threatening another player with no recourse to the ball or the game itself in reaction to something, I could maybe understand a yellow. But to book a player just trying to get the ball to take their free kick? Not for me. The ref overracted in what should have been a straightforward situation, a stern word at most.

 

[Clive Walker]

Jota received rightly a yellow as determined by the laws of the game for preventing a free kick being taken and kicking the ball away. There is absolutely no dispute over his yellow.

I don't disagree with anyone saying Dunk was wrong to put himself in the position of being sent off, but that doesn't mean we can't be critical of the decision on it's own merits.

I had this same discussion in the Seven Stars after. A push is not a yellow card in the laws of the game. People often say 'if you raise your hands' but that is not in the laws of the game either. A push is only a yellow card if it is deemed reckless or violent conduct (where it could also be a red). In the context of trying to get the ball to take a free kick, I think the referee got it wrong. It wasn't reckless. The player who committed the foul was Jota. The player looking to disrupt the game and kick the ball away was Jota. The person who was just looking to get on with things was Dunk. Over enthusiastically yes, but not a yellow for me.

Referees have to make decisions in context. Had Dunk been aggressively threatening another player with no recourse to the ball or the game itself in reaction to something, I could maybe understand a yellow. But to book a player just trying to get the ball to take their free kick? Not for me. The ref overracted in what should have been a straightforward situation, a stern word at most.

thumbs up!

 

[Mellotron]

How is this EVEN being debated

Imagine if it was one of their players and they WERN'T sent off.

Well Jota wasn't sent off for two clear yellow offences, so not hard to imagine. Also the Dunk sending off was entirely caused by the inaction of the inept Ref/Lino combo.

 

[Kendo3]

Very interesting. It was the most annoyed I'd got with the officials in a long time. This morning I was blaming the beer.

What I don't get is just because you referee in League two does this mean your not as good a ref in the championship, certainly when you get to league standard you should be able to ref in any of the top 4 divisions. I understand that the top refs have a better man mangement skills and maybe read the games better, so in principle there must be many issues with refing following a League two side!!

 

[spring hall convert]

I can't believe there are people trying to argue that Dunk didn't deserve to be sent off.

Yes the referee was awful.
Yes Dunk's been our best player this year.

But he only has himself to blame. The red mist decended and he deserved to go. Young players have those kind of lapses, move on and be grateful it wasn't a straight red.

 

[JBizzle]

I hate to side against an Albion player, but can there really be a debate? Sure, Jota went down easily, but you simply cannot put your hands on a player in the modern age of refereeing, especially if the referee in question is so officious he'll make you move a ball that's already in the corner quadrant back an inch twice.

I thought it was harsh at the time, and I still think it's soft (to the point that he would have remained on the pitch should Jota have kept his feet) but although soft, it was correct given the laws of the game. His two yellows were taken straight out of the "Guaranteed cards any referee cannot afford to not give" handbook.

 

[mejonaNO12 aka riskit]

I can't believe there are people trying to argue that Dunk didn't deserve to be sent off.

Yes the referee was awful.
Yes Dunk's been our best player this year.

But he only has himself to blame. The red mist decended and he deserved to go. Young players have those kind of lapses, move on and be grateful it wasn't a straight red.

Exactly.

If the scenario was that Dunk put his hands up to the guys face and the player went falling to the ground holding his face then YES, I can see the debate. You can argue "he was stupid raising his hands" vs "but he went down trying to get him sent off".

However in this scenario there is no debate:
1 - He raised his hands (instantly sets alarm bells ringing for the ref)
2 - He DEFINITELY pushed the guy
3 - It was needless. Not following a bad tackle, or words where the ref can perhaps understand a little retaliation.

Gone and rightly so.

 

[Diego Napier]

I hate to side against an Albion player, but can there really be a debate? Sure, Jota went down easily, but you simply cannot put your hands on a player in the modern age of refereeing, especially if the referee in question is so officious he'll make you move a ball that's already in the corner quadrant back an inch twice.

I thought it was harsh at the time, and I still think it's soft (to the point that he would have remained on the pitch should Jota have kept his feet) but although soft, it was correct given the laws of the game. His two yellows were taken straight out of the "Guaranteed cards any referee cannot afford to not give" handbook.

I agree with you completely.

I think why it's being debated so much is because of the inconsistent decisions throughout the game (e.g. CMS being blatantly pushed in the back whilst jumping for a ball and nothing given) and the woeful absence of any initiative or support from the two linesmen.

 

[father_and_son]

...It was never hard enough to make a man fall over, so shouldn't have been a yellow card...

As someone who sits on the front row in the SWC, I can tell you most definitely that Dunk's push was sufficient to floor most people. The push was both sudden and with significant force to his chest (nowhere near and never going to be near his face) and Jota, although a low life, cheating tw*t was not play acting when he fell, he was genuinely surprised at Dunk's reaction.

Dunk was played like a fool and shouldn't have reacted the way he did. That yellow was 100% justified.

 

[BensGrandad]

If caught off balance most people would fall with the lightest of pushes.

 

[ATFC Seagull]

Don't know if I am too late to the party here but to me the raising hands thing isn't always the case. If you raise your hands out of anger reacting to a foul, you tend to get a yellow. But if a player runs off with the ball and gets pushed, the ref tends to keep the cards in his pocket. E.g. when a keeper tries to stop a goal scorer fishing the ball out of the net, it nearly always ends with the keeper getting a shove, yet rarely/never with a card. I thought Dunk's push falls more into the latter category, although the deal breaker was clearly the player going flying to the ground.