[Finance] The cryptocurrency (Bitcoin etc) thread

[CheeseRolls]

It is quite interesting to gauge the general lack of interest and cynicism around all things crypto, despite the very obvious signs of things starting to really take off. I suspect that we will have a lot more people paying attention towards the end of this year, when it is possible that the market will already be close to the top.

 

[Mr deez]

It is quite interesting to gauge the general lack of interest and cynicism around all things crypto, despite the very obvious signs of things starting to really take off. I suspect that we will have a lot more people paying attention towards the end of this year, when it is possible that the market will already be close to the top.

I think it's because yhe crypto fans view of things 'really taking off' is in its price rising. There's still no real world usage other than buying drugs, it remains a tool for speculation.

 

[chickens]

p

people who invested 10 k 20 years ago would have an entirely different opinion....check out the appreciation .

I understand that those who speculated at the start have gained significantly.

However, a winning bet is still a bet.

There has been no real world service or goods provided, there is no utility attached to the coin.

I don’t know of anyone, even those who’ve profited, who would argue with that, regardless of how much they’ve made.

 

[Berty23]

There are coins that are set up to be used like money. It might not work but ETN is one example. They focus on the unbanked because much of the developing world have a phone but no bank. So they try to develop markets where people trade in ETN. They have a website where you can pay people to deliver digital tasks and they get paid in ETN. Obviously it is early days but there are tokens that are being used like this.

Time will tell if these take off.

 

[sparkie]

Has anyone on NSC lost a lot of money on cryptocurrency ? We only ever seem to hear of successes - failure stories would be very interesting.

If no one ever fails then that tells a story in itself.

 

[peterward]

There are coins that are set up to be used like money. It might not work but ETN is one example. They focus on the unbanked because much of the developing world have a phone but no bank. So they try to develop markets where people trade in ETN. They have a website where you can pay people to deliver digital tasks and they get paid in ETN. Obviously it is early days but there are tokens that are being used like this.

Time will tell if these take off.

BAX is another www.getbabb.com and already have banking licence and FCA regulatory approval.

 

[beorhthelm]

I understand that those who speculated at the start have gained significantly.

However, a winning bet is still a bet.

There has been no real world service or goods provided, there is no utility attached to the coin.

I don’t know of anyone, even those who’ve profited, who would argue with that, regardless of how much they’ve made.

which coin? BTC? there are many others. one day you realise the utility of crypto is to fund projects and be traded, that in itself creates utility. most of the financial markets are much the same, turning over trillions of value moving stocks, bonds, currencies around, many times more than the underlying values or economy. crypto created a play pit where anyone can play this game albeit a lower scale. who knows if some of the projects come out with productive solutions (and there are some), its making an awful lot of money along the way.

 

[chickens]

which coin? BTC? there are many others. one day you realise the utility of crypto is to fund projects and be traded, that in itself creates utility. most of the financial markets are much the same, turning over trillions of value moving stocks, bonds, currencies around, many times more than the underlying values or economy. crypto created a play pit where anyone can play this game albeit a lower scale. who knows if some of the projects come out with productive solutions (and there are some), its making an awful lot of money along the way.

I was referring to BTC, yes.

If its utility is “to be traded” then is that a true utility?

There may be coins out there linked to specific real world projects, and they would then have some utility. The question there, is what value is the project being funded by its own currency providing? Why couldn’t the project attract funding in dollars or pounds?

It’s rather like any service that converts your money into tokens or credits, you’re exchanging a freely available and tradable resource for one that only contains any value within a closed ecosystem. Why is that a good thing?

 

[Berty23]

I was referring to BTC, yes.

If its utility is “to be traded” then is that a true utility?

There may be coins out there linked to specific real world projects, and they would then have some utility. The question there, is what value is the project being funded by its own currency providing? Why couldn’t the project attract funding in dollars or pounds?

It’s rather like any service that converts your money into tokens or credits, you’re exchanging a freely available and tradable resource for one that only contains any value within a closed ecosystem. Why is that a good thing?

In some parts of the developing world far more people have mobile phones than access to proper bank accounts. We look at things in a very western/developed world sense.

 

[CheeseRolls]

I think it's because yhe crypto fans view of things 'really taking off' is in its price rising. There's still no real world usage other than buying drugs, it remains a tool for speculation.

I have posted real life use cases on many occasions on this thread. People either don't read or don't understand them. I guess from your perspective this will be the case right up to the point where HR announce next months payroll will be in cumrocket. I can assure you this isn't going to happen, so maybe you need not bother yourself with this thread anymore.

 

[beorhthelm]

If its utility is “to be traded” then is that a true utility?

yes. that's the point i'm making.

 

[GloryDays]

Has anyone on NSC lost a lot of money on cryptocurrency ? We only ever seem to hear of successes - failure stories would be very interesting.

If no one ever fails then that tells a story in itself.

It would be interesting but probably not too forthcoming. Personally, I went in with 2k and came out with, I can't really remember, £1200 maybe. Not a high roller. This was a couple of years ago. Didn't do very well lol.

I took it all out, except about £30 worth and forgot about it until this week. Now it's up to £250 or something ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ . If I was a smarter investor I would have left it alone, but I learnt it's not for me. I fiddled about and moved it too much. I just don't have the disposition for it. I'm a buy high, sell low kinda guy. But it was a good investment in what I learnt about myself and other people. Just my opinion, not based on sour grapes or anything, but it still stinks of Ponzi trash to me. The NFT thing turned me right off. People drinking the Kool Aid over there.

Good luck to those with money in it. I might go back in one day and try my luck but probably not right now.

 

[Mr deez]

I have posted real life use cases on many occasions on this thread. People either don't read or don't understand them. I guess from your perspective this will be the case right up to the point where HR announce next months payroll will be in cumrocket. I can assure you this isn't going to happen, so maybe you need not bother yourself with this thread anymore.

I have a few grand of various coins so I'll read what I want, cheers.

Also doesn't help buy in when Crypto folk reckon they are so clever and superior.

 

[CheeseRolls]

I was referring to BTC, yes.

If its utility is “to be traded” then is that a true utility?

There may be coins out there linked to specific real world projects, and they would then have some utility. The question there, is what value is the project being funded by its own currency providing? Why couldn’t the project attract funding in dollars or pounds?

It’s rather like any service that converts your money into tokens or credits, you’re exchanging a freely available and tradable resource for one that only contains any value within a closed ecosystem. Why is that a good thing?

Firstly apologies for not answering the question. I think it is missing the point.

Very little Bitcoin is traded. People are sitting on it;

• As insurance against the US government going bust. Strangely from a British persepctive many Americans would genuinely welcome this.
• or as protection against rampant inflation in country, some examples below.

When the bitcoin price is depressed, plenty of people will argue it is a poor store of value. If you have currency controls and rampant inflation the short term price variation is less of a problem. The same applies if you are hedging against a major economic disaster like your own government going bust. In the next two months the reward paid to Bitcoin miners will half. At a time when demand especially from Exchange Traded Funds is high.

You don't need to do anything about this, you can just sit on the sidelines and watch as the madness unfolds.

High Inflation Nations (Jan 2024)
Country	CPI inflation%
Venezuela	189.8
Zimbabwe	26.5
Argentina	211.4
Sudan	71.6
Turkey	64

 

[chickens]

yes. that's the point i'm making.

There I disagree with you. If it has no other purpose than to be traded, then it has no genuine utility, and is really poorly designed for the task. I know that other coins improve on BTCs limitations, but BTC has poor transaction throughput, and performs in a vastly inferior fashion to existing technology using existing FIAT currencies. It’s not very good at its job.

If I invest in a stock, I’m investing in a company that does something. I’ve got the whole market to choose from, I might buy Nvidia (chipmaking) or Microsoft (software/cloud services) or even P&G (consumer goods) or BAT (tobacco)

However, every share I buy, is effectively a vote of confidence in what that company does. I believe that the company involved is well led, profitable, and has good prospects for the future.

Similarly, if I buy bonds/gilts, I am lending to a company or government that agrees to pay interest on the lent money at a specific rate. That government or company then utilises the money I’ve lent it, either on infrastructure projects or developing new products, whatever that organization wants or needs.

If I invest in Bitcoin, it calls itself a currency, but it isn’t. It’s a security like a share or a bond. If I take (e.g.) £30,000 and shove it into BTC, where have I created value? Where are the jobs created? What work have I sped towards its conclusion?

None, nothing, nada. What am I, in effect hoping for? Number goes up. BTC is not an investment, it is a speculation.

 

[CheeseRolls]

Has anyone on NSC lost a lot of money on cryptocurrency ? We only ever seem to hear of successes - failure stories would be very interesting.

If no one ever fails then that tells a story in itself.

I am pretty sure I posted on here when my portfolio was down 78% and there have been many posts where people have taken big hits. I think a lot of people like @GloryDays above cut their losses and moved on.

 

[beorhthelm]

Has anyone on NSC lost a lot of money on cryptocurrency ? We only ever seem to hear of successes - failure stories would be very interesting.

If no one ever fails then that tells a story in itself.

i had a large unrealised loss from the top last cycle, but having put very little in probably not what you are thinking of. there are plenty of failures, usually from exuberance, overconfidence or mis-timing the market (buying at the top).

 

[beorhthelm]

...
Similarly, if I buy bonds/gilts, I am lending to a company or government that agrees to pay interest on the lent money at a specific rate. That government or company then utilises the money I’ve lent it, either on infrastructure projects or developing new products, whatever that organization wants or needs.
...

not if you buy on the secondary market. you are providing liquidity to that market, an exit for the other holders. most the markets are trading and producing this liquidity, not the initial captial raise. the utility is the market, without which it would be more risky to provide the initial capital.

BTC is definatly not a security and has the approval of SEC to say so. it is a currency in its own virtual world. there's a deep dive in to what money, currency is and isn't, often had by those arguing gold is the only real money and our £ and $ are all worthless. the arguments to refute that tend to support the notion Bitcoin is a currency.

 

[CheeseRolls]

I have a few grand of various coins so I'll read what I want, cheers.

Also doesn't help buy in when Crypto folk reckon they are so clever and superior.

So are you buying drugs?

in the real world striking up a meaningful conversation around cryptocurrency is almost a complete non-starter, hence I really value the insight I get from exchanging views here. Apologies if that comes across as arrogant, but the real world utility thing has been done to death from my perspective and I have nothing more to add on that subject.

 

[Weststander]

Has anyone on NSC lost a lot of money on cryptocurrency ? We only ever seem to hear of successes - failure stories would be very interesting.

If no one ever fails then that tells a story in itself.

Someone admitted to losing 5 figures.

Do people post here that they lost a sizeable stake at the bookies?