[Finance] The cryptocurrency (Bitcoin etc) thread

[Berty23]

So is this Bitcoin ETF approval a sign it is going to go mainstream then or what?

 

[Mr Phil]

So is this Bitcoin ETF approval a sign it is going to go mainstream then or what?

129 pages of discussion about it on a football forum and you don’t think it’s mainstream yet?

 

[beorhthelm]

So is this Bitcoin ETF approval a sign it is going to go mainstream then or what?

you'll be able to buy Bitcoin in your ISA or SIPP, or at least USians will in their equivalent for now. opens up a very large pool of investors, they only need to put in odd % for that to lead to large billions to flow in.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

you'll be able to buy Bitcoin in your ISA or SIPP, or at least USians will in their equivalent for now. opens up a very large pool of investors, they only need to put in odd % for that to lead to large billions to flow in.

Hopefully the SEC will deny any and all Bitcoin ETF approvals. Said it before, say it again, that crap needs to stay ringfenced in its own crypto-ghetto and not be allowed to poison the mainstream financial markets. Bitcoin's price is highly volatile and the price is constantly subject to manipulation by bad actors. As recently as a couple of days ago, the price shot up when the SEC's twitter feed got compromised and an unknown person was able to falsely claim that the SEC had approved Bitcoin ETFs. Hopefully that will convince the SEC to do the exact opposite. You really want that crap poisoning pension funds and saving plans? It would inevitably end in tears

FBI investigates fake tweet about bitcoin investment fund that led to price spike

Hackers posted false news about a widely anticipated announcement that the SEC was expected to make about bitcoin

www.google.co.uk

 

[beorhthelm]

Hopefully the SEC will deny any and all Bitcoin ETF approvals....

SEC approved the ETF's yesturday.

dodgy press and manipulation of prices happens in other markets. this is no more poisonus than investing in mineral exploration.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

SEC approved the ETF's yesturday.

dodgy press and manipulation of prices happens in other markets. this is no more poisonus than investing in mineral exploration.

Aw crap, just seen that. And this despite the SEC admitting they remain deeply sceptical about bitcoin being highly susceptible to fraud and manipulation.

Unbelievable Jeff

'Despite approving the new ETFs, the SEC said it was still deeply skeptical about cryptocurrencies and that its decision did not mean it approves or endorses bitcoin.
“Investors should remain cautious about the myriad risks associated with bitcoin and products whose value is tied to crypto,” said Gary Gensler, the agency’s chairman.
Other commissioners expressed alarm that the SEC agreed to approve the funds.
“I am concerned that these products will flood the markets and land squarely in the retirement accounts of US households who can least afford to lose their savings to the fraud and manipulation that appears prevalent in the spot bitcoin markets,” Commissioner Caroline Crenshaw said in her dissent.'

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...-explained-meaning-securities-regulator-tweet

 

[CheeseRolls]

Aw crap, just seen that. And this despite the SEC admitting they remain deeply sceptical about bitcoin being highly susceptible to fraud and manipulation.

Unbelievable Jeff

'Despite approving the new ETFs, the SEC said it was still deeply skeptical about cryptocurrencies and that its decision did not mean it approves or endorses bitcoin.
“Investors should remain cautious about the myriad risks associated with bitcoin and products whose value is tied to crypto,” said Gary Gensler, the agency’s chairman.
Other commissioners expressed alarm that the SEC agreed to approve the funds.
“I am concerned that these products will flood the markets and land squarely in the retirement accounts of US households who can least afford to lose their savings to the fraud and manipulation that appears prevalent in the spot bitcoin markets,” Commissioner Caroline Crenshaw said in her dissent.'

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...-explained-meaning-securities-regulator-tweet

and the world keeps turning Tom.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

and the world keeps turning Tom.

and the seeds of the next financial crisis are sown

 

[chickens]

and the seeds of the next financial crisis are sown

It’s interesting isn’t it?

The “coins” (they aren’t coins) have no utility, you’re not investing in a company that creates something or provides services, and they burn through incredible amounts of energy to “mine”.

The transaction throughput rate is too slow for them to form the basis of a payments system, and their entire value is based on their supposed scarcity, and that’s it. Relying entirely on greater fool theory, there being someone willing to pay you more than you paid for them.

You can’t invest in something with these properties, you can only speculate/gamble that “number goes up”.

I’ve no ill will toward those cheerleading for this stuff, there are plenty of real world companies selling snake oil, and as always it’s buyer beware. I’d just say treat as a bet, not an investment, and only commit an amount you can afford to lose.

 

[pb21]

It’s interesting isn’t it?

The “coins” (they aren’t coins) have no utility, you’re not investing in a company that creates something or provides services, and they burn through incredible amounts of energy to “mine”.

The transaction throughput rate is too slow for them to form the basis of a payments system, and their entire value is based on their supposed scarcity, and that’s it. Relying entirely on greater fool theory, there being someone willing to pay you more than you paid for them.

You can’t invest in something with these properties, you can only speculate/gamble that “number goes up”.

I’ve no ill will toward those cheerleading for this stuff, there are plenty of real world companies selling snake oil, and as always it’s buyer beware. I’d just say treat as a bet, not an investment, and only commit an amount you can afford to lose.

BTC is a medium of exchange only, with a known and finite supply.
A large amount of energy is used, its what protects/secures the network. Other payment networks also consume large amounts of energy. Arguably there is a cost effective incentive to mine BTC using currently wasted energy.
The transaction throughput rate is slow on the network, however, there are layers on top of this (liquid, lightning) that are very fast and cheap. Ultimately the base layer is where transactions are logged.
You don't invest in BTC.

 

[beorhthelm]

and the seeds of the next financial crisis are sown

the next financial crisis will be from the huge, ever-growing government debt being built up by countries. just like early 2000's looks like we've dodge major recession, in the next decade politicans will convince themselves there's some new economic alchemy.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

It’s interesting isn’t it?

The “coins” (they aren’t coins) have no utility, you’re not investing in a company that creates something or provides services, and they burn through incredible amounts of energy to “mine”.

The transaction throughput rate is too slow for them to form the basis of a payments system, and their entire value is based on their supposed scarcity, and that’s it. Relying entirely on greater fool theory, there being someone willing to pay you more than you paid for them.

You can’t invest in something with these properties, you can only speculate/gamble that “number goes up”.

I’ve no ill will toward those cheerleading for this stuff, there are plenty of real world companies selling snake oil, and as always it’s buyer beware. I’d just say treat as a bet, not an investment, and only commit an amount you can afford to lose.

Trouble is tho, the SEC have just given Bitcoin ETFs a fake veneer of respectibility. While number go up, pension funds and the like will be under pressure to 'invest' in this crap

 

[chickens]

Trouble is tho, the SEC have just given Bitcoin ETFs a fake veneer of respectibility. While number go up, pension funds and the like will be under pressure to 'invest' in this crap

I’m taking a longer view. Absolutely there may be pressure in the short term for institutional investors to pile in, but I’m personally of the opinion that they’ll soon get tired of having their overall performance dragged about by a speculative instrument where the number goes up and goes down, and they have absolutely no way of understanding or explaining the reasons behind it.

It’s very difficult for any active fund manager to justify putting BTC in their portfolio. There’s no output, there’s no management team, there’s nothing except sterile 1s and 0s that continue to exist as long as the blockchain remains uncorrupted. It’s a bet, not an investment.

Where things get more interesting is if the ETF is popular enough to be permitted into indices, whereby tracker funds would (to meet their remit) have to buy in. But that’s the market at work. It’s utterly detached from tangible reality, but I wouldn’t say it’s the first time that markets have proven susceptible to flights of fancy. There are certainly plenty of other “bets” that form part of our financial system.

The best I can say is it will play out in front of us, and everyone assumes they’re going to be the winners, right up until they discover they weren’t. I may even stick a tenner in myself, it’s an amount I can afford to lose.

 

[beorhthelm]

Trouble is tho, the SEC have just given Bitcoin ETFs a fake veneer of respectibility. While number go up, pension funds and the like will be under pressure to 'invest' in this crap

there's no pressure on funds to invest into anything. they have their investment strategy, their analysts pick accordingly. a pension fund wants regular returns so will be picking bonds and high dividend stocks. a growth fund want high capital increase so will be investing in latetst tech sector darlings, they might allocate 1% to BTC ETF, alongside their AI and Lithium mining punts.

 

[peterward]

So is this Bitcoin ETF approval a sign it is going to go mainstream then or what?

Yes. Bitcoin so far has been the preserve of high risk investors using unregulated exchanges. A wild west market.

In UK, FCA has regulated some exchanges and providers of crypto derivative products to real world companies, so they are fully regulated under the FCA. Market traders love volatility, though they don't love and won't use unregulated exchanges or products.

Bitcoins real future value, was not so much in its finite supply, but in getting large institutional city investors to use it as an additional nvestment instrument. There's trillions of £$ that could be potentially invested that never would in the previous wild west with regulation.

ETFs, and share based 1:1 products, in a regulated environment will see an explosion of real world capital moving into these products from pension and hedge funds and further adoption.

Forget the THPP rants, it's going to happen.

There will be a flood of money coming into these new ETFs and as overall market capitalisation increases they will be excellent long term investments (always volatile in short term)

 

[beorhthelm]

Cathie Wood, of Ark Invest a very large fund, predicts $1.5million price by 2030. which would be nice.

 

[peterward]

Trouble is tho, the SEC have just given Bitcoin ETFs a fake veneer of respectibility. While number go up, pension funds and the like will be under pressure to 'invest' in this crap

You're just so wrong mate, but you have no reverse gear. Youre believing this nonsense in the face of reality.

When you're in hole, stop digging!

Clearly you dont understand it and want to be right, but you wont be, in a few years such comments will form an NSC comedy gold thread.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

You're just so wrong mate, but you have no reverse gear. Youre believing this nonsense in the face of reality.

When you're in hole, stop digging!

Clearly you dont understand it and want to be right, but you wont be, in a few years such comments will form an NSC comedy gold thread.

Keep believing in your magic beans mate, backed by the square root of f*ck all apart from the outrageous scam in clear view that is the magic money printer Tether. Soon as that scam gets taken down, the whole shitty house of cards collapses

 

[peterward]

I’m taking a longer view. Absolutely there may be pressure in the short term for institutional investors to pile in, but I’m personally of the opinion that they’ll soon get tired of having their overall performance dragged about by a speculative instrument where the number goes up and goes down, and they have absolutely no way of understanding or explaining the reasons behind it.

It’s very difficult for any active fund manager to justify putting BTC in their portfolio. There’s no output, there’s no management team, there’s nothing except sterile 1s and 0s that continue to exist as long as the blockchain remains uncorrupted. It’s a bet, not an investment.

Where things get more interesting is if the ETF is popular enough to be permitted into indices, whereby tracker funds would (to meet their remit) have to buy in. But that’s the market at work. It’s utterly detached from tangible reality, but I wouldn’t say it’s the first time that markets have proven susceptible to flights of fancy. There are certainly plenty of other “bets” that form part of our financial system.

The best I can say is it will play out in front of us, and everyone assumes they’re going to be the winners, right up until they discover they weren’t. I may even stick a tenner in myself, it’s an amount I can afford to lose.

I don't want to sound arrogant, but I genuinely believe i understand it, the fundamentals of supply demand and institutional direction of travel. But even all that aside as nobody knows if mankind will even be here in 10 years.

I do my own SIPP (none of this is investment advice et al) and less than 5 years ago, before the FCA stupidly banned retail investors from further buying of Crypto based derivatives.(because idiots were doing 100x leverage casino trades and losing every time) I had bought and still hold share based derivatives of both BTC and ETH, the BTC was equivalent to about 2 BTC at time of purchase and that £16k is now £67k, my ETH cost just over £4k and is now £32k, 700%. There's no other holdings that come close (except the 2 bitcoin mining companies Riot and Marathon which have trebled) and if major industry insiders are correct and BTC may get anywhere near 7 figures or even half way there, those reasonable sized risk assessed purchases may be the best financial decisions I've ever made?

I may still lose that 20k, but which naysayer genuinely wouldn't swap a devaluing 20k cash in their pension for 100k of BTC/ETH derivatives?

 

[pb21]

backed by the square root of f*ck all