[Finance] The cryptocurrency (Bitcoin etc) thread

[Tyrone Biggums]

That’s exactly how ‘top’ traders create their reputations. You never hear about the losing trades.

You're talking about traders, not investors.

How do you post losing trades when you're holding everything for multiple years?

The people who are losing trades are the ones trying to make a quick buck.

20% down to them is bad, 20% down to someone holding until 2024 is nothing.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

You're talking about traders, not investors.

How do you post losing trades when you're holding everything for multiple years?

The people who are losing trades are the ones trying to make a quick buck.

20% down to them is bad, 20% down to someone holding until 2024 is nothing.

Yes, you’re right. I was talking about hot shot traders that are swooned over by the likes of CNBC. For a long term investor the returns in crypto have been astounding but still some people contrive to lose money by muddling the short and long term as trading horizons.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Yes, you’re right. I was talking about hot shot traders that are swooned over by the likes of CNBC. For a long term investor the returns in crypto have been astounding but still some people contrive to lose money by muddling the short and long term as trading horizons.

And those people end up getting liquidated.

 

[Lower West Stander]

You're talking about traders, not investors.

How do you post losing trades when you're holding everything for multiple years?

The people who are losing trades are the ones trying to make a quick buck.

20% down to them is bad, 20% down to someone holding until 2024 is nothing.

Wrong.

Traders and investors do exactly the same thing. Both mark to market and take a view based on time horizons. Some may hedge themselves synthetically if there is liquidity to do so but fundamentals of investing are exactly the same whatever you buy or sell. It either goes up or it goes down. It’s just sophisticated gambling.

No one has the remotest clue where any market is going to be in 2024. We’d all be zillionaires if we did.


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[helipilot]

Ouch right now!! BTC at $31,500, long term luckily!

 

[dazzer6666]

Wrong.

Traders and investors do exactly the same thing. Both mark to market and take a view based on time horizons. Some may hedge themselves synthetically if there is liquidity to do so but fundamentals of investing are exactly the same whatever you buy or sell. It either goes up or it goes down. It’s just sophisticated gambling.

No one has the remotest clue where any market is going to be in 2024. We’d all be zillionaires if we did.


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This…..my limited crypto playing around is ‘trading’ rather than ‘investing’ but I don’t have a particular or defined time horizon on it. I’ve currently got a a few open positions (happily not many/much) that are showing big ‘losses’ but they won’t be ‘actual’ losses until I close the trades - which I won’t do, least not yet. Happy to let them ride and possibly recover. I’ve long since extracted my initial stake and am only playing with gains - just a bit of fun/interest really.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Wrong.

Traders and investors do exactly the same thing. Both mark to market and take a view based on time horizons. Some may hedge themselves synthetically if there is liquidity to do so but fundamentals of investing are exactly the same whatever you buy or sell. It either goes up or it goes down. It’s just sophisticated gambling.

No one has the remotest clue where any market is going to be in 2024. We’d all be zillionaires if we did.


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They don't do exactly the same thing at all. Their psychology is completely different. From why they buy something to their risk aversion.

Traders aren't buying a coin because of the projects fundamentals and what it might or might not do, they couldn't care less as they have zero interest or emotional interest in what it does.

The emotional response from one group to the next in a time like now shows they aren't doing exactly the same thing.

One is panicking and selling, having a negative response while the other is seeing it as an opportunity to buy which indicate a positive reaction.

If they were all doing the same thing everyone would be shitting themselves and selling, they aren't.

 

[Lower West Stander]

They don't do exactly the same thing at all. Their psychology is completely different. From why they buy something to their risk aversion.

Traders aren't buying a coin because of the projects fundamentals and what it might or might not do, they couldn't care less as they have zero interest or emotional interest in what it does.

The emotional response from one group to the next in a time like now shows they aren't doing exactly the same thing.

One is panicking and selling, having a negative response while the other is seeing it as an opportunity to buy which indicate a positive reaction.

If they were all doing the same thing everyone would be shitting themselves and selling, they aren't.

I'm not going to get bogged down in a debate on this as you clearly have an entrenched view.

From someone who works in the front office of an investment management firm and has been in the market for over 20 years, I will stick to my view that what you are saying above is fundamentally incorrect. To suggest traders are just taking punts without understanding the fundamentals is just rubbish.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

I'm not going to get bogged down in a debate on this as you clearly have an entrenched view.

From someone who works in the front office of an investment management firm and has been in the market for over 20 years, I will stick to my view that what you are saying above is fundamentally incorrect. To suggest traders are just taking punts without understanding the fundamentals is just rubbish.

Did you see how many got liquidated the other day in crypto?

I'll bet very few were long term holders and most were traders.

So yes, I am suggesting that traders take punts in crypto.

[tweet]1406940459302273028[/tweet]

 

[dazzer6666]

Did you see how many got liquidated the other day in crypto?

I'll bet very few were long term holders and most were traders.

So yes, I am suggesting that traders take punts in crypto.

[tweet]1406940459302273028[/tweet]

They take positions based on their understanding of the fundamentals...................those taking 'punts' are people like me, mucking about with a few quid without a detailed understanding.

 

[KeegansHairPiece]

I'm not going to get bogged down in a debate on this as you clearly have an entrenched view.

From someone who works in the front office of an investment management firm and has been in the market for over 20 years, I will stick to my view that what you are saying above is fundamentally incorrect. To suggest traders are just taking punts without understanding the fundamentals is just rubbish.

Front of office investment traders really did understand the fundamentals of subprime mortgage securities and dot.com investments didn't they.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

They take positions based on their understanding of the fundamentals...................those taking 'punts' are people like me, mucking about with a few quid without a detailed understanding.

You think traders were buying into Doge because of the fundamentals of the coin?

All these people who buy and sell shit meme coins are traders.

Traders will be more concerned with TA and social media than fundamentals.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

I'm not going to get bogged down in a debate on this as you clearly have an entrenched view.

From someone who works in the front office of an investment management firm and has been in the market for over 20 years, I will stick to my view that what you are saying above is fundamentally incorrect. To suggest traders are just taking punts without understanding the fundamentals is just rubbish.

I have been a front office trader for over 30 years and I agree with Tyrone but not for the reasons he mentions. Pretty much everyone in the market looks at fundamentals so it’s not that. Rather, I think the distinction centers upon what you are trying to achieve. A trader wants to make his yearly p and l and will take a long term view but is happy to trade short term around it. An investor is parking wealth and looking for a return and shouldn’t be too concerned with the short term noise. It is possible to be both but I think that if an investor is going to veer into trading then he needs to be as aggressive and disciplined as his competitors in banks etc. Very few will have the necessary skills.

 

[dazzer6666]

You think traders were buying into Doge because of the fundamentals of the coin?

All these people who buy and sell shit meme coins are traders.

Traders will be more concerned with TA than fundamentals.

Depends what you mean by 'traders' - I wouldn't confuse professional traders in investment firms with day-trading punters sat at home chasing the latest reddit pump.........even though some aren't philosophically that far removed, just better qualified and controlled

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Front of office investment traders really did understand the fundamentals of subprime mortgage securities and dot.com investments didn't they.

A lot of them did yes, and made a lot of money. Remember that professional traders are the casino. They make the markets. Investors walk in the door, are given some nice drinks and have their pockets picked

 

[Albion Dan]

Totally irrelevant imo. The price was on a knife edge around $34k and a daily close below was always going to be highly significant in the direction of the market. $23k and even back to $13k now possibilities if that $34k isn't recovered fast!

This is now very much in play imo.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

I have been a front office trader for over 30 years and I agree with Tyrone but not for the reasons he mentions. Pretty much everyone in the market looks at fundamentals so it’s not that. Rather, I think the distinction centers upon what you are trying to achieve. A trader wants to make his yearly p and l and will take a long term view but is happy to trade short term around it. An investor is parking wealth and looking for a return and shouldn’t be too concerned with the short term noise. It is possible to be both but I think that if an investor is going to veer into trading then he needs to be as aggressive and disciplined as his competitors in banks etc. Very few will have the necessary skills.

The crypto trader demographics are quite different to the SX trader.

Fundamentals play very little part in a large section of crypto traders minds.

The pump and dumpers don't care one bit about what a crypto project might actually deliver long term.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Death Cross has been reached and breached

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Depends what you mean by 'traders' - I wouldn't confuse professional traders in investment firms with day-trading punters sat at home chasing the latest reddit pump.........even though some aren't philosophically that far removed, just better qualified and controlled

We're talking crypto here, not the SX.

The % of pump and dump traders in crypto is quite large as a sum of the whole compared to other markets.

They are traders as they do impact the day to day price of a coin. Even if its a shit coin.

 

[marcos3263]

I think it is all hilarious and this is from someone that is currently £418 down with various crypto at 68% down

lots of silly people dabbling in something they don't know about looking for easy money.

My mate who had a couple of £100k just keeps saying to forget about it as its all cyclical. The forums just keep saying to buy the dip.

I'm just wondering what to tell the missus and what happens when it hits zero