[Politics] The Budget - March 2020

[portslade seagull]

Labour MPs probably trying to work out why spending £ billions extra is OK when the Tories do it, but is the end-of-civilisation when Labour pledge it.

This is small fry to what Labour wanted to spunk up the wall

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

The new IR35 rules are utterly ridiculous. Just a way of forcing the self employed into being nominally 'employed' and therefore pay more tax. It will lose people their jobs. I need a to hire a contractor for maternity leave cover .... prices have gone up so much I'm probably not going to bother. Only an utter fvckwit would have brought those rules in !

It’s a very daft and ill thought out policy. Anecdotal evidence suggests either rates are going up to cover the contract’s tax burden (people I know asked for and got increases 14% and north) or companies are changing their working practices to keep positions outside of IR35. There should have been a halfway house flat rate tax scheme in my opinion ie inside and you pay , say 30%.

Be interesting to see how this ultimately pans out.

 

[Weststander]

Labour MPs probably trying to work out why spending £ billions extra is OK when the Tories do it, but is the end-of-civilisation when Labour pledge it.

McDonnell’s fiction was that high earners and companies could pay for it all.

Not believed by the electorate, Labour’s worst election result in the best part of a century.

The Tories have gone down the more traditional Labour route of borrowing through gilts.

 

[Wrong-Direction]

Without looking, what's it mean for a self employed plumber?

Sent from my SM-A600FN using Tapatalk

 

[Eeyore]

Really good budget.

Latest polls have the Conservatives at over 50%.

The Labour leader contenders all look duffers. It is going to be a fantastic decade

Conservatives acclaimed for a budget of spending that outstrips the spending plans of Labour by some distance.

And Labour were ridiculed as being 'boom and bust'....

 

[Weststander]

It’s a very daft and ill thought out policy. Anecdotal evidence suggests either rates are going up to cover the contract’s tax burden (people I know asked for and got increases 14% and north) or companies are changing their working practices to keep positions outside of IR35. There should have been a halfway house flat rate tax scheme in my opinion ie inside and you pay , say 30%.

Be interesting to see how this ultimately pans out.

IR35 was started 20 years ago by Gordon Brown, due to widespread tax abuse by all and sundry. Employees in anyone else's book, notably John Birt DG of the BBC, falsely purported not to be employed, in cahoots with the ultimate engager who saves 13.8% in employers national insurance costs.

Labour, Coalition and Tory governments have in waves, clamped down on this further. In a constant game with middle men facilitators who cream off some of the tax and national insurance evaded for themselves. Their contracts written with one aim, not a commercial one, but to beat the badges of employment tests determined by case law over many decades.

Hopefully true entrepreneurs, operating with real risks, are safeguarded and not hit by IR35.

I personally know several ‘consultants’ who’ve thrown in the towel and taken full time employment with the previous ultimate engager. Lately, persuaded to do so by the engager. Their attitude seems to be that the tax ruse was very lucrative whilst it lasted, but now they quite like the job security, paid holiday, company pension, etc. They tend to be in very well paid professions such as IT, advertising and project management.

 

[dazzer6666]

Without looking, what's it mean for a self employed plumber?

Sent from my SM-A600FN using Tapatalk

Not much if you do most of your work for cash [emoji6]

 

[WATFORD zero]

This is small fry to what Labour wanted to spunk up the wall

I'm guessing you didn't win Benfield's best mathematician award

What do you reckon the annual GDP growth these figures are based on. Simple 5 years figures will do

 

[Dr Bandler]

The new IR35 rules are utterly ridiculous. Just a way of forcing the self employed into being nominally 'employed' and therefore pay more tax. It will lose people their jobs. I need a to hire a contractor for maternity leave cover .... prices have gone up so much I'm probably not going to bother. Only an utter fvckwit would have brought those rules in !

Absolutely. It is already killing the IT contract market, and those positions will not be absorbed by new permanent positions. The contract market suited both companies, who wanted a flexible element to their workforce, and the contractors themselves, who agreed to swap permanent rights and benefits for more instant remuneration. There has to be some incentive for people to become contractors, and the associated uncertainty.

As well as dimisnishing the number of people employed, it will decimate all of the supply companies who support contracting, e.g. speciailist accountants and agencies. Add in the fact that contractors do actually pay tax in the form of corporation tax, dividend tax and VAT, and I believe that the net effect of IR35 will be to reduce the overall tax take and shrink the economy. It is a "nasty" tax thought up by civil servants, and it is idiotic to implement it (especially at this time when we need to stimulate the economy and tax take).

 

[Sorrel]

Pretty happy with that budget. The money being spent on infrastructure should be ok, the day to day expenses are more of a gamble. But we knew this was coming, whoever won the election - and personally I'm very glad it isn't the other lot in charge of the finances.

 

[zefarelly]

If John McDonnell had introduced this Budget, the Tories and the Express, Mail, Sun, Torygraph and Times would have been screaming about economic recklessness, irresponsible spending, "same old Labour", and warning of Britain being turned into Venezuela.

But the Tories borrow-and-spend £ billions, and it's all wonderful

I Popped into my local earlier, and chatting with a certain John B from Southwick and others this is exactly what we said/agreed.

**** the British press!

 

[Weststander]

Absolutely. It is already killing the IT contract market, and those positions will not be absorbed by new permanent positions. The contract market suited both companies, who wanted a flexible element to their workforce, and the contractors themselves, who agreed to swap permanent rights and benefits for more instant remuneration. There has to be some incentive for people to become contractors, and the associated uncertainty.

As well as dimisnishing the number of people employed, it will decimate all of the supply companies who support contracting, e.g. speciailist accountants and agencies. Add in the fact that contractors do actually pay tax in the form of corporation tax, dividend tax and VAT, and I believe that the net effect of IR35 will be to reduce the overall tax take and shrink the economy. It is a "nasty" tax thought up by civil servants, and it is idiotic to implement it (especially at this time when we need to stimulate the economy and tax take).

All true about those taxes, but ultimately the lack of employees and employers national insurance caused the issue from day one.

Will anyone shed a tear for a loss of some specialist accountants and agencies? The raison d’etre of many of these was simply to facilitate arrangements to circumvent tax rules, costing the country tax revenue, whilst they themselves became wealthy on the back of it.

Real agencies providing specialists and trades existed long before the growth of consultants working for a single engager through a limited company. They’ll carry on as before.

 

[WATFORD zero]

It's a big spend budget without a doubt, so I'm waiting to see the GDP predictions this is based on given we have 0.0 growth for the last quarter, followed by the effects of Coronavirus, followed by a worldwide recession, followed by whatever Brexit brings.

I'm sure Rishi has factored those into the underlying GDP figures the whole budget is based on, after all, he's a professional, isn't he?

Anyone know those figures (I know from experience, that they have been published as part of the Budget And want to put the five year prediction up here?

 

[nwgull]

All true about those taxes, but ultimately the lack of employees and employers national insurance caused the issue from day one.

Will anyone shed a tear for a loss of some specialist accountants and agencies? The raison d’etre of many of these was simply to facilitate arrangements to circumvent tax rules, costing the country tax revenue, whilst they themselves became wealthy on the back of it.

Real agencies providing specialists and trades existed long before the growth of consultants working for a single engager through a limited company. They’ll carry on as before.

All true. Flexible workers can continue to be flexible via zero hours contracts with their employers.

 

[Weststander]

It's a big spend budget without a doubt, so I'm waiting to see the GDP predictions this is based on given we have 0.0 growth for the last quarter, followed by the effects of Coronavirus, followed by a worldwide recession, followed by whatever Brexit brings.

I'm sure that's all been factored into the underlying GDP figures the whole budget is based on.

Anyone know those figures (I know from experience, that they have been published as part of the Budget )

Necessarily, aren’t they unknowns, no one yet knowing the effects of the pandemic on the UK?

Ex ministers today have been very open that there’ll probably be a recession (2 or more consecutive quarters of a fall in GDP). Shirley China, Italy and others will endure a recession too.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Necessarily, aren’t they unknowns, no one yet knowing the effects of the pandemic on the UK?

Ex ministers today have been very open that there’ll probably be a recession (2 or more consecutive quarters of a fall in GDP). Shirley China, Italy and others will endure a recession too.

That may well be true and generally accepted, but if you check the supporting papers for the budget, you may find our chancellor disagrees and has based his figures on an alternative scenario for GDP growth over the next 5 years

 

[GT49er]

Necessarily, aren’t they unknowns, no one yet knowing the effects of the pandemic on the UK?

Ex ministers today have been very open that there’ll probably be a recession (2 or more consecutive quarters of a fall in GDP). Shirley China, Italy and others will endure a recession too.

Absolutely. And given the uncertainty caused by Coronavirus - which certainly will cause economic chaos, as well as deaths - the budget is a very good one. I suspect the reason that Corbyn looked sick as a pig was that he was struggling to find a credible way of ripping it to shreds - especially given that it was doing much that a Labour Government (a proper Labour Government anyway) would want to do in the circumstances.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

IR35 was started 20 years ago by Gordon Brown, due to widespread tax abuse by all and sundry. Employees in anyone else's book, notably John Birt DG of the BBC, falsely purported not to be employed, in cahoots with the ultimate engager who saves 13.8% in employers national insurance costs.

Labour, Coalition and Tory governments have in waves, clamped down on this further. In a constant game with middle men facilitators who cream off some of the tax and national insurance evaded for themselves. Their contracts written with one aim, not a commercial one, but to beat the badges of employment tests determined by case law over many decades.

Hopefully true entrepreneurs, operating with real risks, are safeguarded and not hit by IR35.

I personally know several ‘consultants’ who’ve thrown in the towel and taken full time employment with the previous ultimate engager. Lately, persuaded to do so by the engager. Their attitude seems to be that the tax ruse was very lucrative whilst it lasted, but now they quite like the job security, paid holiday, company pension, etc. They tend to be in very well paid professions such as IT, advertising and project management.

I know this, and I hear you. But it also causes a headache for genuine freelancers who have multiple clients and have genuine overheads and expenses.

 

[Weststander]

That may well be true and generally accepted, but if you check the supporting papers for the budget, you may find our chancellor disagrees and has based his figures on an alternative scenario for GDP growth over the next 5 years

The consensus from those ex-ministers and hugely respected financial writers such as Gillian Tett is that this coming recession will be short. Caused by the pandemic. From a sharp downturn, growth over the following 4 plus years could be strong.

I voted Remain like you. But I’m not hoping that my country has a long recession to prove me right. We are where we are, I want our country to prosper.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

All true. Flexible workers can continue to be flexible via zero hours contracts with their employers.

I’m not sure this is necessarily correct. Eg I don’t believe a single client IT contractor can simply switch to zero hours to circumvent the this off-payroll legislation.