[Albion] The BIG keeper debate

[KZNSeagull]

Our best fannying performance recently was against Marseille with Steele and Gross/Wee Billy as the midfield 2. I don't know but perhaps the key to top notch fannying is the midfield pairing rather than the goalkeeper?

 

[Bry Nylon]

Anyone calling for Sanchez to return really wants us to change how we play. Sanchez wasn’t binned off because he “fell out” with De Zerbi but because he couldn’t play the distribution patterns and had poor discipline and time keeping.

All the time RDZ is in charge, how a keeper plays out will be more important than their shot xG. We play some of the most exciting football in Europe when we’re on it. That comes with risk.

I’m not calling for Sanchez to return, obvs, as that will never happen. But I do believe, in the post-Caicedo and MacAllister era, and with long-term injuries to key players, we need to vary how we play.

I agree that Albion v.22/23 played some of the most exciting football in Europe; I wouldn’t necessarily say that about Albion v.23/24. I think the ‘risk/reward’ equation has become slightly imbalanced and an adjustment to the style of play is required until such time as we get some of the wounded out of the treatment room.

Otherwise we are just going to keep haemorrhaging points.

 

[Guinness Boy]

I’m not calling for Sanchez to return, obvs, as that will never happen. But I do believe, in the post-Caicedo and MacAllister era, and with long-term injuries to key players, we need to vary how we play.

I agree that Albion v.22/23 played some of the most exciting football in Europe; I wouldn’t necessarily say that about Albion v.23/24. I think the ‘risk/reward’ equation has become slightly imbalanced and an adjustment to the style of play is required until such time as we get some of the wounded out of the treatment room.

Otherwise we are just going to keep haemorrhaging points.

I think it’s the other way round to an extent.

Someone on here drew a parallel with Bielsa’s Leeds and there’s some merit in it. We’re attack first, we’ve used man to man in the past and we train very hard. Bielsa came apart when people worked out his primary tactics and his training methods started to yield injuries.

For me, RDZ is aware of that and we have altered how we play a little as a result. At times we’ve had three at the back and, without Estupinian, we overlap less (but this just allows teams to double up on the one footed Mitoma). The play out patterns are different too because almost no one presses us.

The reasons we’ve not done a full Bielsa is because our players are far better in general than that Leeds side. But the reason we’re dropping points is that the team isn’t anywhere near as strong as last season. We’ve replaced a World Cup winner and the best young CDM in the world with a guy who barely played in France, a German free transfer and a pensioner. I don’t believe the current squad are capable of playing either last years way or the subtle changes that RDZ is undoubtedly trying. Baleba is good but raw, Dahoud doesn’t track back and Milner’s too slow. This has made us more open and too slow in transition.

 

[albionalex]

Bit of a tangent but specifically to Bart's mistake on Thursday, the best option would have been a long ball over the top. The Palace back 4 were on the halfway line with Mitoma on the left hand side.

It would have been the perfect opportunity to play a ball in behind, similar to the goal Mitoma scored vs Brentford last year and Adingra vs them in pre-season.

However, Mitoma didn't make the run behind (which he seems to be doing a lot less of now). Not sure if that's under instruction from RDZ.

 

[AstroSloth]

Shot xG only tells you a tiny fraction of the story. It doesn’t include successful passes, it doesn’t show how the chance came about or who the player shooting was (Kane and Bissouma from exactly the same spot would undoubtedly end in different outcomes). It doesn’t count assists for. Steele has Premier League assists to his name.

It doesn’t take into account the score in the game or how open the defence is. So many times this season we’ve been chasing a game. When we had to shut up shop at Forest we did so successfully (with Bart making an excellent save).

Anyone calling for Sanchez to return really wants us to change how we play. Sanchez wasn’t binned off because he “fell out” with De Zerbi but because he couldn’t play the distribution patterns and had poor discipline and time keeping.

All the time RDZ is in charge, how a keeper plays out will be more important than their shot xG. We play some of the most exciting football in Europe when we’re on it. That comes with risk.

Post shot xG actually includes shot quality in its model so it tells the difficulty of shots faced by a keeper.

Agree with the rest though.

 

[Dave the hatosaurus]

So do I - but I realise that is an unacceptable view to be expressed on NSC. He was dropped, responded with two superb performances (against Chelsea and at Wembley) only to be told, no, sod it, you're the number 2 to Steele. Incredible that some people can't understand why he was pissed off, and decided he was a dickhead.

Alternatively, in 10, 15 or 20 year's time, when today has become history, history's judgement might be that, "RDZ knows best" is re-written as "de Zerbi's first mistake". NSC heresy now, I realise - but are we really that much better for dumping Sanchez? I've yet to see incontrovertible evidence.

Just to say that while i disagree with your view i for one do not think it is unacceptable. It is an honestly expressed opinion on a matter which i happen to see in a different way. I do understand why he would be upset but for me it was the way he reacted after that that made him a "dickhead".
There could have been a scenario with important games upcoming where an opposition forward tangled with Steele and he went down injured resulting in Sanchez being called from the bench. He could then have pulled off a couple of worldy saves, we score a late winner and bingo he is a hero. Instead he negated any chance of that by refusing to be on the bench thus effectively putting his own interests above that of the team we love.
That is my opinion and i do not think describing that opinion as "incredible" helps your cause.
As for "De Zerbi's first mistake" i am sure like you me and everyone else he has already made plenty however the good he has done overall for our club gives him a lot of brownie points in my view. Finally there will be no "incontrovertible evidence" either for your view or mine as neither of us will know what would have happened in an alternative future had certain decisions not been made.

 

[giveusfalmerplease]

Steele wins hands down for distribution and can also read the game a lot better than BV. Remember the goal last season when, after long periods of "fannying around" Steele spots Mitoma? making a run and times the perfect lob over every other damn player on the pitch leading to one on one with the oppo goalie and scores. Ball literally touches 2 players from goal kick to goal other end. How many other goalies in the world are credited with an assist?

 

[SeagullsoverLondon]

Bit of a tangent but specifically to Bart's mistake on Thursday, the best option would have been a long ball over the top. The Palace back 4 were on the halfway line with Mitoma on the left hand side.

It would have been the perfect opportunity to play a ball in behind, similar to the goal Mitoma scored vs Brentford last year and Adingra vs them in pre-season.

However, Mitoma didn't make the run behind (which he seems to be doing a lot less of now). Not sure if that's under instruction from RDZ.

For me, the mistake really wasn't Bart's. There were two senior players who have played in the Premier League for us since we were promoted, who played it back and forth to each other before playing it back to Bart, which put him under pressure as it was all so slow and predictable. It was about 30 seconds before the end of the half. Surely game management at that time from our two leaders Dunk and Gross would have been the best option, i.e. Welly it up the pitch.
I think Bart was stuffed at that point. I am not sure Steele would have done a lot better in the circumstances.

 

[giveusfalmerplease]

For me, the mistake really wasn't Bart's. There were two senior players who have played in the Premier League for us since we were promoted, who played it back and forth to each other before playing it back to Bart, which put him under pressure as it was all so slow and predictable. It was about 30 seconds before the end of the half. Surely game management at that time from our two leaders Dunk and Gross would have been the best option, i.e. Welly it up the pitch.
I think Bart was stuffed at that point. I am not sure Steele would have done a lot better in the circumstances.

Gross definitely signalled to Bart to hoof it upfield

 

[Guinness Boy]

So do I - but I realise that is an unacceptable view to be expressed on NSC. He was dropped, responded with two superb performances (against Chelsea and at Wembley) only to be told, no, sod it, you're the number 2 to Steele. Incredible that some people can't understand why he was pissed off, and decided he was a dickhead.

Alternatively, in 10, 15 or 20 year's time, when today has become history, history's judgement might be that, "RDZ knows best" is re-written as "de Zerbi's first mistake". NSC heresy now, I realise - but are we really that much better for dumping Sanchez? I've yet to see incontrovertible evidence.

Sorry, you’re wrong about that. There was a very good reason he was dropped.

 

[albionalex]

For me, the mistake really wasn't Bart's. There were two senior players who have played in the Premier League for us since we were promoted, who played it back and forth to each other before playing it back to Bart, which put him under pressure as it was all so slow and predictable. It was about 30 seconds before the end of the half. Surely game management at that time from our two leaders Dunk and Gross would have been the best option, i.e. Welly it up the pitch.
I think Bart was stuffed at that point. I am not sure Steele would have done a lot better in the circumstances.

Gross was pointing for Bart to boot it upfield.

 

[Bry Nylon]

Steele wins hands down for distribution and can also read the game a lot better than BV. Remember the goal last season when, after long periods of "fannying around" Steele spots Mitoma? making a run and times the perfect lob over every other damn player on the pitch leading to one on one with the oppo goalie and scores. Ball literally touches 2 players from goal kick to goal other end. How many other goalies in the world are credited with an assist?

I remember that. We’d already conceded another 3 goals at home by that point.

 

[KZNSeagull]

Gross was pointing for Bart to boot it upfield.

Gross was pointing for Bart to boot it to Hinsh, but the press cleverly cut that pass off

 

[SeagullsoverLondon]

Gross was pointing for Bart to boot it to Hinsh, but the press cleverly cut that pass off

But Gross had two chances to boot it up the pitch, and passed it to Dunk, who also had two chances to boot it up the pitch.

 

[KZNSeagull]

But Gross had two chances to boot it up the pitch, and passed it to Dunk, who also had two chances to boot it up the pitch.

I agree with you - I don't think it was Bart's fault either and neither does RDZ importantly.

 

[Weststander]

I think it’s the other way round to an extent.

Someone on here drew a parallel with Bielsa’s Leeds and there’s some merit in it. We’re attack first, we’ve used man to man in the past and we train very hard. Bielsa came apart when people worked out his primary tactics and his training methods started to yield injuries.

For me, RDZ is aware of that and we have altered how we play a little as a result. At times we’ve had three at the back and, without Estupinian, we overlap less (but this just allows teams to double up on the one footed Mitoma). The play out patterns are different too because almost no one presses us.

The reasons we’ve not done a full Bielsa is because our players are far better in general than that Leeds side. But the reason we’re dropping points is that the team isn’t anywhere near as strong as last season. We’ve replaced a World Cup winner and the best young CDM in the world with a guy who barely played in France, a German free transfer and a pensioner. I don’t believe the current squad are capable of playing either last years way or the subtle changes that RDZ is undoubtedly trying. Baleba is good but raw, Dahoud doesn’t track back and Milner’s too slow. This has made us more open and too slow in transition.

I loved and literally LOL’d at “a pensioner”.

 

[American Seagle]

But Gross had two chances to boot it up the pitch, and passed it to Dunk, who also had two chances to boot it up the pitch.

It wasn't a problem at this point so booting it upfield would be the wrong decision.
Passes out of the back that lead to a goal against are rarely the failing of one player and are mostly the consequence of a good press and poor team wide movement and positioning.

 

[macbeth]

i honestly don’t think the goal was overly verbruggen’s fault. the whole situation has come from both dunk and groß abdicating responsibility for dealing with the ball and passing the buck to a 21 year old keeper who then has a very tight angle. both should know better. they’re both experienced players, one of them needs to take charge there.

obviously bart’s pass was very poor, but i’d only really expect the likes of steele or ederson to be that comfortable dealing with the ball in that situation. something was always possibly going to go awry when bart received that pass. multiple chances to avoid it getting to that point beforehand

 

[SeagullsoverLondon]

It wasn't a problem at this point so booting it upfield would be the wrong decision.
Passes out of the back that lead to a goal against are rarely the failing of one player and are mostly the consequence of a good press and poor team wide movement and positioning.

Dunk had two chances to hit it up the line. First time, he gave it back to Gross, who had no option but to pass back. The second time, Dunk received it there needed to be a hoof, especially as Igor was out of position at that point.

 

[mothy]

If Bart starts against Stoke, does that confirm that Steele will be no. 1 for European & league games?

I thought last night was probably Steeles best performance (so far)