[Albion] The BIG keeper debate

[Kalimantan Gull]

The people who would rather another keeper over Steele, perhaps fall into different categories:

- like you and a reasoned opinion.
- those with an irrational vendetta, the lower league at best Sunderland thing has been mentioned many a time in put the boot into Steele threads or similar.

No, i think we all pretty much fall into the same category. We like Steele, he's a great guy, great with his feet. He doesnt make mistakes very often. But he almost never makes worldie saves, which almost every other keeper makes. And we want that.

 

[chickens]

I’m all for “carry on rotating” (the unreleased Carry On film which had Kenneth Williams sticking his middle finger up as the cover image)

In every other position you have cover and that cover plays, albeit as substitute or in cup games, I don’t know why goalkeeper has historically been an exception, but any look at potential single points of failure in a team should be flagging up the risk of having only one match ready keeper in the squad.

 

[Kosh]

Sorry but De Gea was a total disaster when Man Utd tried to do "fannying about at the back". He was totally incapable. I dread to think of the horrors which would ensue if we signed De Gea to play DeZerbi-ball

That’s what I’m saying really, not that we’d be in for him anyway… ultimately we’re after a great GK and a great footballer hmmmmm unlikely in the extreme.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

they need to recognise when the press trap is on, it's working (they have no options) and the outlet is to leather it up field or out of play. you cant always play it out.

Well I agree with this, but you'd need to take it up with Roberto de Zerbi, rather than Bart or Jason.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

It's his second similar ricket though, the Bournemouth one was just as bad.

I don't think the Bournemouth one really WAS simlar. This one, he was following instructions, but simply under-hit his pass. there's no chance he had instructions to get caught on the ball OUTSIDE HIS PENALTY AREA!

 

[Dave the hatosaurus]

Above the poll bozza put "what to do about goalkeepers" but in his first post put "what would you do".
This to me is the point because whatever you or i think about it is totally irrelevant as it is the manager who makes the decisions. Therefore as i am fully behind the man who fulfilled my dream of getting to watch the Albion play in Europe i have voted to rotate away.
Further to this when you actually compare their records they are very similar. In the 25 games played in all comps this season Jason has started 13 and Bart 12 both have 2 clean sheets and 6 matches with only one goal conceded. The only real anomaly is the Villa 6 goal fiasco and i think we can all agree that was "one of those games" where the goalkeeper was not really at fault for most of the goals.

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

When De Zerbi took over and we started faffing around at the back as a tactical choice, it was always said this would lead to occasional mistakes that could cost us a goal or two. Of course one of those mistake would happen against Palace making it seem even bigger than it is.

But how many times has this happened to us? I can only remember it happening in one other game (Bournemouth?) this season.

To the question of the thread, I'm conflicted, because I'd prefer we stick with one keeper. But I'm not convinced either are good enough at enough aspects of what we need to claim a clear number one.

Ver Bruggen has made mistakes with the ball that have led to goals against Bournemouth, Liverpool, Arsenal and Palace. That's four times in 12-14 games.
It's a problem- hopefully just a teething problem, but a problem nonetheless IMO.

He's either:

a)not as good on the ball as we think
b)not great at decision making yet
c)Not got/had the required passing options
d)a mix of some or all of a-c.

If it's a then he should probably come out of the team until he's better at it.

If it's b then you have the choice of taking him out of the team and working on training until it's improved or going with the 'the only way to learn that is to play' approach.

If it's c then that's on his teammates and shouldn't have too much baring on his place in the team.

To answer the op question I guess it depends on what the club/RDZ thin VB's ceiling is and the best way for him to get there. I think I'm edging towards playing Steele more because playing from the back is such a key part of RDZ's tactical plan and he's really good at it so I think that might be more beneficial for the team at the moment. I can easily be talked out of that opinion though and if VB puts in some big goalkeeping performances I'll quite happily back him.

 

[Guinness Boy]

I don't think the Bournemouth one really WAS simlar. This one, he was following instructions, but simply under-hit his pass. there's no chance he had instructions to get caught on the ball OUTSIDE HIS PENALTY AREA!

Fair enough but it’s more similar than diving over the ball or, I dunno, completely missing a cross in front of the Holmsdale.

 

[saafend_seagull]

Amidst the understandable focus on Bart's mistake last night, its important to remember that there are lots of ways for a keeper to give a goal away. Bart's poor pass obviously led to a goal so will get all the attention, but actually Dean Henderson was the much shakier of the two keepers last night, and made many more mistakes than he did. Henderson dropped a simple cross in his six yard box then fumbled it trying to recover, spilled a simple shot out in front of himself, and made the comedy weak punch into Welbeck's face - any of which statistically were probably more likely to lead to a goal than Bart's poor pass.

Also - please do remember that Bart's only mistake in that horror goal, was to underhit that clipped pass. The rest of it - showing for the ball when Groß needed an outlet, taking a touch when he got it, turning back onto his left with the striker right on him - is what he has been TOLD to do.

Henderson 7.9.
Bart 5.2

Futmob.

In terms of what to do, both are not good enough. Neither come for crosses especially on corners. Sanchez better than both excluding feet. But feet we have given I think 5 goals away ?

 

[Bodian]

When De Zerbi took over and we started faffing around at the back as a tactical choice, it was always said this would lead to occasional mistakes that could cost us a goal or two. Of course one of those mistake would happen against Palace making it seem even bigger than it is.

But how many times has this happened to us? I can only remember it happening in one other game (Bournemouth?) this season.

Arguably the first goal against Arsenal. Came from a corner that was created by Verbruggen giving them the ball.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Henderson 7.9.
Bart 5.2

Futmob.

In terms of what to do, both are not good enough. Neither come for crosses especially on corners. Sanchez better than both excluding feet. But feet we have given I think 5 goals away ?

I’ve no idea what a futmob is, but if those are their player ratings, I’d suggest that you don’t waste your time looking at them again. 7.9 for a keeper who made at least three huge errors that would have been punished by a sharper opponent, is just ridiculous.

 

[mothy]

I would drop Bart. & play Steele for the remainder of this season

 

[Nicky Rust Fan Club]

Verbruggen needs time to develop so I would've sent him on loan this year. I worry that there could be real damage to his confidence if this continues and that would be a shame because I think he could become a world class keeper given time.

So for me, we should be playing Steele right now

 

[albionalex]

Time to go all in with Verbruggen now. He's the future.

Fans need to be patient when he makes mistakes, like the rest of our young players do & will.

But with Bart, it's important to remember he'll win us point as well, through making saves that Steele could not.

I don't remember any so far.

 

[Bry Nylon]

Neither are good enough imho.

Agree with this.

For a club with top 10 aspirations in the Premier League, neither option is good enough. However, continually rotating two sub-optimal keepers in and out of the starting 11 just seems to be exacerbating what is already a bad situation.

I’d prefer RDZ to just pick one and stick with him. For me, ideally, that would be Bart but even that simply feels like choosing the ‘least worst option’ which is hardly ideal.

Fully expecting Spurs to fill their boots on the 28th, regardless of which one of them wins the ‘goalkeeper lucky dip’ that particular day.

 

[Mustafa II]

What is the peak age for a keeper?

Between 27-32 is a fair estimation.

Verburggen is just 21.... and he's already a decent Premier League keeper, at worst.

We could... continue to play Steele, who will NEVER realistically be a top quality Premier League keeper... and have Verbruggen as a back up, seriously slamming down the brakes on his development.

We could... sign a new keeper, which would surely come with a £20m+ price tag, or more. Possibly £40m+ if he is to tick all of our boxes... and even then, he might not be what we hoped for.... good rounded goalkeepers are seriously had to come by, ask the big 6..... and then send Verbruggen out on loan somewhere, hoping he comes back the finished article.

OR, and the best option in my view, hand over the keys to Verbruggen to our number one spot... Coach him to be even better, in the areas that he needs improving... then watch in admiration as over the next few seasons he becomes one of the finest goalkeepers in the world... that bit requires a BIT of patience as he WILL make mistakes... but he's already good at just 21 in his first full season in the PL.

 

[GT49er]

Nick Pope, Aaron Ramsdale, Jordan Pickford.

All good with gloves but more limited distribution skills.

.....and all, I think, have earned their clubs points against us!

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

Do you think it's more likely that Steele would learn to become a better shot stopper, or that Verbruggen will learn to improve with the ball at his feet?

Of course it's a rhetorical question, but that's why the answer to this debate is so obvious.

Verbruggen is actually pretty good with the ball at his feet - it's just that we're comparing him to Steele who has been exceptional. But Bart can learn this. He's already noticeably improved somewhat in the short time he's been here.

Statistically, Bart is better with the ball at his feet than Steele.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

What is the peak age for a keeper?

Between 27-32 is a fair estimation.

Verburggen is just 21.... and he's already a decent Premier League keeper, at worst.

We could... continue to play Steele, who will NEVER realistically be a top quality Premier League keeper... and have Verbruggen as a back up, seriously slamming down the brakes on his development.

We could... sign a new keeper, which would surely come with a £20m+ price tag, or more. Possibly £40m+ if he is to tick all of our boxes... and even then, he might not be what we hoped for.... good rounded goalkeepers are seriously had to come by, ask the big 6..... and then send Verbruggen out on loan somewhere, hoping he comes back the finished article.

OR, and the best option in my view, hand over the keys to Verbruggen to our number one spot... Coach him to be even better, in the areas that he needs improving... then watch in admiration as over the next few seasons he becomes one of the finest goalkeepers in the world... that bit requires a BIT of patience as he WILL make mistakes... but he's already good at just 21 in his first full season in the PL.

This is the post.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

It's his second similar ricket though, the Bournemouth one was just as bad.

Like I said, he is a better shot stopper than Steele. However, last season when we really got going we had a really good distributor (Steele) passing to a really good central pivot (Caicedo). Having neither simply waters down a tactic from breaking the press to actually fannying around.

If we are to stick with BV, which would be the forward thinking choice, we simply have to sign an oven ready pivot / DM in January and a fullback or two. If we're going to have Baleba / Gross / Gilmour as CDM and Igor and Hinshelwood as the wide receivers it absolutely HAS to be Steele playing.

So if we don’t sign defenders and a pivot, which continues to leave us overly exposed, you want to put the poorer keeper in goal because he can play a bit more (even though his numbers are worse than Bart’s)?