[Misc] The Big Bang (or not).

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larus

Well-known member
https://iai.tv/articles/the-big-bang-didnt-happen-auid-2215

Just read the above. An interesting article about the Big Bang and that the analysis of images from the James Webb Space Telescope further undermines the consensus of the theory.

They've been hypothesising (making up) stuff to support the theory as the observations/calculations weren't supported by the estimated mass of the universe. So they came up with dark matter and then dark energy.

Planck_Cosmic recipe pie chart_crop.jpg

The observed mass of the universe (galaxies - planets/suns etc) is less the 5% of the estimated mass of the universe. The rest is 'dark' stuff. - and this dark stuff has never been detected even though huge amounts have been spent trying to find it. Just think of that - 95% of the mass of the universe we can find - doh!


Extract from page:
To everyone who sees them, the new James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) images of the cosmos are beautifully awe-inspiring. But to most professional astronomers and cosmologists, they are also extremely surprising—not at all what was predicted by theory. In the flood of technical astronomical papers published online since July 12, the authors report again and again that the images show surprisingly many galaxies, galaxies that are surprisingly smooth, surprisingly small and surprisingly old. Lots of surprises, and not necessarily pleasant ones. One paper’s title begins with the candid exclamation: “Panic!”

Why do the JWST’s images inspire panic among cosmologists? And what theory’s predictions are they contradicting? The papers don’t actually say. The truth that these papers don’t report is that the hypothesis that the JWST’s images are blatantly and repeatedly contradicting is the Big Bang Hypothesis that the universe began 14 billion years ago in an incredibly hot, dense state and has been expanding ever since. Since that hypothesis has been defended for decades as unquestionable truth by the vast majority of cosmological theorists, the new data is causing these theorists to panic. “Right now I find myself lying awake at three in the morning,” says Alison Kirkpatrick, an astronomer at the University of Kansas in Lawrence, “and wondering if everything I’ve done is wrong.”

It is not too complicated to explain why these too small, too smooth, too old and too numerous galaxies are completely incompatible with the Big Bang hypothesis. Let’s begin with “too small”. If the universe is expanding, a strange optical illusion must exist. Galaxies (or any other objects) in expanding space do not continue to look smaller and smaller with increasing distance. Beyond a certain point, they start looking larger and larger. (This is because their light is supposed to have left them when they were closer to us.) This is in sharp contrast to ordinary, non-expanding space, where objects look smaller in proportion to their distance.

...
(And this part was very concerning).

Readers may well be wondering at this point why they have not read of this collapse of the Big Bang hypothesis in major media outlets by now and why the authors of so many recent papers have not pointed to this collapse themselves. The answer lies in what I term the “Emperor’s New Clothes Effect”—if anyone questions the Big Bang, they are labeled stupid and unfit for their jobs. Unfortunately, funding for cosmology comes from a very few government sources controlled by a handful of committees that are dominated by Big Bang theorists. These theorists have spent their lives building the Big Bang theory. Those who openly question the theory simply don’t get funded.



I wonder if there are any other areas of scientific theory where those who questions the prevailing accepted orthodoxy get called stupid and lose their funding? Hmmm...
 




Tom Hark Preston Park

Will Post For Cash
Jul 6, 2003
72,366
Terms like 'Dark Matter', 'Dark Energy' and indeed 'The Big Bang' just emphasise how little we know about the cosmos. In a couple of centuries, maybe less, they'll be mocking our understanding of the cosmos exact like we used to mock 17th century understanding of the cosmos. So it goes. Forever and ever
 


larus

Well-known member
Terms like 'Dark Matter', 'Dark Energy' and indeed 'The Big Bang' just emphasise how little we know about the cosmos. In a couple of centuries, maybe less, they'll be mocking our understanding of the cosmos exact like we used to mock 17th century understanding of the cosmos. So it goes. Forever and ever

Exactly - but most people still assume that 'scientists' know everything.

When you hear statements like "This science is settled" - all that means is one side doesn't want to debate. If they are so confident of their position they would happily debate with people who disagree.
 


American Seagle

Well-known member
Jun 14, 2022
898
It is ongoing research. If we knew all the answers we wouldn't be researching it and working it out. Trying to make a conspiracy out of scientists not understanding something/altering theories/new data contradicting previous theories is just stupid. That is just what happens with research.
 


beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
36,026
Big Bang Theory has not sprung forth in its current edition. it went through several challenges and alterations as new discoveries were made that falsified the previous maths, new maths and models emerging to explain the new observations. aiui dark matter is a consequence of this, needed to balance the amount of total mass needed for gravity effects observed. we'll see if this new finding leads to an alteration or complete rejection, too early to say. this is what science does, makes hypothesis, falsifiable theory, observations, changes. its never settled.
 




larus

Well-known member
Big Bang Theory has not sprung forth in its current edition. it went through several challenges and alterations as new discoveries were made that falsified the previous maths, new maths and models emerging to explain the new observations. aiui dark matter is a consequence of this, needed to balance the amount of total mass needed for gravity effects observed. we'll see if this new finding leads to an alteration or complete rejection, too early to say. this is what science does, makes hypothesis, falsifiable theory, observations, changes. its never settled.

Unless it's climate science where the historical data gets adjusted to support the narrative.
 




keaton

Big heart, hot blood and balls. Big balls
Nov 18, 2004
9,972
https://iai.tv/articles/the-big-bang-didnt-happen-auid-2215


I wonder if there are any other areas of scientific theory where those who questions the prevailing accepted orthodoxy get called stupid and lose their funding? Hmmm...


I'm pretty certain they get billions of pounds/dollars from the oil, gas and coal industry, have various news outlets who would like nothing more than "non-orthodox" findings and politicians desperately looking for it
 






B-right-on

Living the dream
Apr 23, 2015
6,729
Shoreham Beaaaach
Terms like 'Dark Matter', 'Dark Energy' and indeed 'The Big Bang' just emphasise how little we know about the cosmos. In a couple of centuries, maybe less, they'll be mocking our understanding of the cosmos exact like we used to mock 17th century understanding of the cosmos. So it goes. Forever and ever

Exactly. The Big Bange Theorists will be looked on like the earth flatters from a couple of hundred years ago, are now.

It's always seemed to me to try and explain something that they (we) haven't a clue about how it happened with some theory that could possibly have been, with a considerable skew of the data.
 


pb21

Well-known member
Apr 23, 2010
6,689
Unless it's climate science where the historical data gets adjusted to support the narrative.

Or just made up by the Chinese.

Seriously though, why do you think that the Climate Change myth/narrative prevails, why did it start, why does it continue?

It's not like this big bang thing, where we have new data, we have people saying it's a load of balony now and supposedly have the data to back it up. I've read blogs about it.

It would be brilliant if it's wrong, why on earth are we ignoring the data and scientists who are telling us that it is?
 




Baldseagull

Well-known member
Jan 26, 2012
11,839
Crawley
https://iai.tv/articles/the-big-bang-didnt-happen-auid-2215

Just read the above. An interesting article about the Big Bang and that the analysis of images from the James Webb Space Telescope further undermines the consensus of the theory.

They've been hypothesising (making up) stuff to support the theory as the observations/calculations weren't supported by the estimated mass of the universe. So they came up with dark matter and then dark energy.

View attachment 150980

The observed mass of the universe (galaxies - planets/suns etc) is less the 5% of the estimated mass of the universe. The rest is 'dark' stuff. - and this dark stuff has never been detected even though huge amounts have been spent trying to find it. Just think of that - 95% of the mass of the universe we can find - doh!


Extract from page:
To everyone who sees them, the new James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) images of the cosmos are beautifully awe-inspiring. But to most professional astronomers and cosmologists, they are also extremely surprising—not at all what was predicted by theory. In the flood of technical astronomical papers published online since July 12, the authors report again and again that the images show surprisingly many galaxies, galaxies that are surprisingly smooth, surprisingly small and surprisingly old. Lots of surprises, and not necessarily pleasant ones. One paper’s title begins with the candid exclamation: “Panic!”

Why do the JWST’s images inspire panic among cosmologists? And what theory’s predictions are they contradicting? The papers don’t actually say. The truth that these papers don’t report is that the hypothesis that the JWST’s images are blatantly and repeatedly contradicting is the Big Bang Hypothesis that the universe began 14 billion years ago in an incredibly hot, dense state and has been expanding ever since. Since that hypothesis has been defended for decades as unquestionable truth by the vast majority of cosmological theorists, the new data is causing these theorists to panic. “Right now I find myself lying awake at three in the morning,” says Alison Kirkpatrick, an astronomer at the University of Kansas in Lawrence, “and wondering if everything I’ve done is wrong.”

It is not too complicated to explain why these too small, too smooth, too old and too numerous galaxies are completely incompatible with the Big Bang hypothesis. Let’s begin with “too small”. If the universe is expanding, a strange optical illusion must exist. Galaxies (or any other objects) in expanding space do not continue to look smaller and smaller with increasing distance. Beyond a certain point, they start looking larger and larger. (This is because their light is supposed to have left them when they were closer to us.) This is in sharp contrast to ordinary, non-expanding space, where objects look smaller in proportion to their distance.

...
(And this part was very concerning).

Readers may well be wondering at this point why they have not read of this collapse of the Big Bang hypothesis in major media outlets by now and why the authors of so many recent papers have not pointed to this collapse themselves. The answer lies in what I term the “Emperor’s New Clothes Effect”—if anyone questions the Big Bang, they are labeled stupid and unfit for their jobs. Unfortunately, funding for cosmology comes from a very few government sources controlled by a handful of committees that are dominated by Big Bang theorists. These theorists have spent their lives building the Big Bang theory. Those who openly question the theory simply don’t get funded.



I wonder if there are any other areas of scientific theory where those who questions the prevailing accepted orthodoxy get called stupid and lose their funding? Hmmm...

No one would be ridiculed if they proposed a better theory, that fits with more of what we think we are seeing. It is one thing to say observations do not meet predicted expectations, but it could be that other assumptions are incorrect. A number of observations do agree with the big bang theory, dark matter and dark energy are a consequence of not being able to reconcile the assumed continued expansion of the Universe, but the Universe would look very similar to us if it were actually contracting to a centre point, the distance between us and the stuff at the centre would be increasing, the distance between us and the stuff further away from the centre would be increasing, just the stuff near us and equidistant from the centre would be getting closer to us.
It does not mean that the universe was not once much denser and hotter than it is today though.
 


larus

Well-known member
I'm pretty certain they get billions of pounds/dollars from the oil, gas and coal industry, have various news outlets who would like nothing more than "non-orthodox" findings and politicians desperately looking for it

I think the funding of climate research is clearly heavily weighted to supporting the 'consensus'. How many scientists wold get grants from universities, governments, IPCC if they said they wanted to prove that the majority of warming was natural/cyclical? Yep, you're right. Close the sweet FA, Actually, they'd probably lose their current research position.

Science should be about challenging the consensus view and encouraging debate. And no, I don't buy into the flat earthers etc. before any thicko suggests that.

No-one disputes the climate has warmed at the end of the 20th century.
No-one disputes that CO2 is a greenhouse gas.
No-one disputes that man is increasing CO2 in the atmosphere.

Many dispute that the warming is all caused by CO2 and that it is damaging. For example, more people die from cold than heat around the world, even in countries like India.
CO2 is plant food - the world has greened with more CO2.

Also, have you heard the the barrier reef is at 40 year highs with coral cover (wonder why that wasn't covered by the BBC - goes against the narrative). Remember all those fear stories about the death of the reef - another failed climate prediction. Like the arctic being ice-free in summer.
 


Baldseagull

Well-known member
Jan 26, 2012
11,839
Crawley
Exactly - but most people still assume that 'scientists' know everything.

When you hear statements like "This science is settled" - all that means is one side doesn't want to debate. If they are so confident of their position they would happily debate with people who disagree.

Science is about discovering the truth, it is never finished, there is always more knowledge to be added. However, in some cases the scientific evidence for one view is overwhelming and is no longer debated, Flat earthers excepted.
Or are you saying there is a reasonable debate to be had as to the proofs that the earth is a largely spherical object and not a giant space disc?
 




A1X

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Sep 1, 2017
20,568
Deepest, darkest Sussex
E24A6011-0AF5-4C13-AF27-E812CC4CF565.jpeg
 


Baldseagull

Well-known member
Jan 26, 2012
11,839
Crawley
Unless it's climate science where the historical data gets adjusted to support the narrative.

I am aware someone was found to be tickling their numbers some years ago, but if got any evidence for that claim, lay it on us.
 


larus

Well-known member
Or just made up by the Chinese.

Seriously though, why do you think that the Climate Change myth/narrative prevails, why did it start, why does it continue?

It's not like this big bang thing, where we have new data, we have people saying it's a load of balony now and supposedly have the data to back it up. I've read blogs about it.

It would be brilliant if it's wrong, why on earth are we ignoring the data and scientists who are telling us that it is?

Here's a link to a report where 1200 scientists have gone on record as saying they don't agree with the prevailing narrative.

https://dailysceptic.org/2022/08/18...ionals-declare-there-is-no-climate-emergency/

If you say "Daily Sceptic hahaha" or something, then where else would you expect to see scientists try to publish when the MSM is so blinkered in its views?

People like Patrick Moore (one of the co founders of GreenPeace and a life long environmentalist) is another example of someone who is sceptical. However, so many get their reputations trashed/lose their jobs for speaking out. If you believe that an increase of CO2 from roughly 3 parts in 10,000 to 4 parts in 10,000 is going to cause the planet to be uninhabitable then that's your choice. Yep, Co2 has increase by 1/2500 in the atmosphere over 150 years. Wow. It's 0.04% by volume.

The problem is so many people just believe what they hear on the MSM and NEVER question.

The questioning of the Big Bang just goes to show that accepted science is not always right and being challenged should not result in insults but debate should be encouraged. That's how things progress, however in todays world, so many who know so little can shout so much,
 


larus

Well-known member
Science is about discovering the truth, it is never finished, there is always more knowledge to be added. However, in some cases the scientific evidence for one view is overwhelming and is no longer debated, Flat earthers excepted.
Or are you saying there is a reasonable debate to be had as to the proofs that the earth is a largely spherical object and not a giant space disc?

I think you need to read my post before your post on that question :)
 








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