The BBC is making a real meal of Mandela's death. No surprise there then.

[Goldstone Rapper]

Will any of NSC's closet racists have the guts to voice their opinions during Saturdays (presumed) minute of silence?

They can't attack Mandela directly, so they have to do indirectly, like saying media coverage by the BBC is too much or saying that there shouldn't be a minute's applause or silence on Saturday.

(Just to clarify, I'm not saying everyone who holds either of those views is automatically a racist).

 

[Machiavelli]

If that's your belief then you are entitled to it.............in factual terms there is compelling evidence to prove he was in the Communist Party.

His motives are not entirely in that respect are not clear, I grant you that, however he would regularly refer to Fidrel Castro as "comrade" and as a statesman he was evidently sympathetic to communist states.

Frankly I don't see that as an issue, its not unusual for groups that use extreme violence to be associated with extreme politics, extreme religion or extreme views..............that's the game.

You are an extremist of the centre.

 

[Machiavelli]

He was the leader of the ANC, whether he was in prison or not, whether he was involved in violence or not.

What I am saying is that he had the perfect opportunity to start a major civil war directly after the assassination of Chris Hani, but he chose not to go down that route. Violence was not what he wanted - he had to resort to violence in the 60's and 70's because his political voice had been cut off. He had no other option at that time.

One question in politics is: what is the state? One of the most compelling responses to this question was provided by Max Weber, who said that the state has a monopoly on violence. If this is the case, then the apartheid state has a monopoly on violence, and the only way to break it is to practice violence against that state. This is what Mandela did and, in my view, he was quite right to do so. It is due to such activities that Thatcher decided to label him as a terrorist -- something that political leaders are quite fond of doing. As KZN suggests, part of the brilliance of Mandela was to recognise when to move from one position ('terrorism') to another (reconciliation).

 

[Buzzer]

If this is the case, then the apartheid state has a monopoly on violence, and the only way to break it is to practice violence against that state. This is what Mandela did and, in my view, he was quite right to do so.

Violence didn't end apartheid, sanctions did. And you're also wrong to state that the only way to break a violent state is with violence. Most of East Europe broke free from the violently oppressive dictatorship of Communism without widescale violence. Gandhi managed to create the largest democracy on earth through peaceful protest. I'm not saying that Mandela was wrong to use violence, just questioning your post.

 

[1959]

They can't attack Mandela directly, so they have to do indirectly, like saying media coverage by the BBC is too much or saying that there shouldn't be a minute's applause or silence on Saturday.

(Just to clarify, I'm not saying everyone who holds either of those views is automatically a racist).

If you think this is bad, you should take a look at the Fox News site today.....except you can't because they had to shut off all the comments sections, and then delete them all. It was all getting a bit KKK.

Here is a very, very mild selection.

 

[Husty]

Even Fox managed a dignified article

 

[Machiavelli]

Violence didn't end apartheid, sanctions did. And you're also wrong to state that the only way to break a violent state is with violence. Most of East Europe broke free from the violently oppressive dictatorship of Communism without widescale violence. Gandhi managed to create the largest democracy on earth through peaceful protest. I'm not saying that Mandela was wrong to use violence, just questioning your post.

You're quite right to question that post of mine Buzzer, and you've exposed a number of simplicities contained within. So, a few qualifications, and then another point.
Qualifications: you're right to question the comment that 'the only way to break a violent state is with violence', and the examples you give exemplify this. I think you're also right to say that Mandela wasn't wrong to use violence, which would suggest that there are a range of strategies that can be deployed to destroy a violent state, and the wise politician (which includes Gandhi, Mandela and many of the eastern European lot -- though not Yeltsin) knows which to deploy and when. I think I indicated that much in the original post that you've picked up on.
Another point: I was referring to Weber's claim about the monopoly of violence. The state's more generally regarded to have the greatest monopoly of violence were the 'communist' ones, east of the Berlin Wall. That makes it all the more surprising that they didn't resort to violence to defend the regime.

 

[Barrel of Fun]

Nothing is worse than seeing your facebook being flooded with Mandela quotes by idiots who'd have no clue what he did, why he's special or anything.

I can think of many things worse.

Death. Plague. Cliff Richard. Just to start us off.

 

[Machiavelli]

I can think of many things worse.

Death. Plague. Cliff Richard. Just to start us off.

How about Cliff Richard and Sue Barker consummating their relationship?

 

[Garage_Doors]

How about Cliff Richard and Sue Barker consummating their relationship?

They split up years ago !

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Once the committed brutality of the apartheid regime became apparent in the early sixties, Mandela came to the conclusion that state violence could only be combatted with violence against the state. But he distinguished between four forms of violence - sabotage, guerrilla warfare, terrorism, and open revolution, concluding that sabotage alone was acceptable. His activities were confined to attacks of sabotage against infrastructure that supported the state.

The quality of his political leadership was such that he led a disciplined campaign of controlled violence against a state that was committing intolerable acts of violence against its own people (including murderous attacks on unarmed innocent people). Three decades later, when he was released from prison, he had the genius to resume his active leadership of the anti-apartheid campaign, by promoting negotiation and reconciliation.

His worldwide reputation today hangs on the principles that he applied throughout his life, both before his imprisonment and afterwards. A great man and a great leader.

 

[Machiavelli]

Once the committed brutality of the apartheid regime became apparent in the early sixties, Mandela came to the conclusion that state violence could only be combatted with violence against the state. But he distinguished between four forms of violence - sabotage, guerrilla warfare, terrorism, and open revolution, concluding that sabotage alone was acceptable. His activities were confined to attacks of sabotage against infrastructure that supported the state.

The quality of his political leadership was such that he led a disciplined campaign of controlled violence against a state that was committing intolerable acts of violence against its own people (including murderous attacks on unarmed innocent people). Three decades later, when he was released from prison, he had the genius to resume his active leadership of the anti-apartheid campaign, by promoting negotiation and reconciliation.

His worldwide reputation today hangs on the principles that he applied throughout his life, both before his imprisonment and afterwards. A great man and a great leader.

This.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Once the committed brutality of the apartheid regime became apparent in the early sixties, Mandela came to the conclusion that state violence could only be combatted with violence against the state. But he distinguished between four forms of violence - sabotage, guerrilla warfare, terrorism, and open revolution, concluding that sabotage alone was acceptable. His activities were confined to attacks of sabotage against infrastructure that supported the state.

The quality of his political leadership was such that he led a disciplined campaign of controlled violence against a state that was committing intolerable acts of violence against its own people (including murderous attacks on unarmed innocent people). Three decades later, when he was released from prison, he had the genius to resume his active leadership of the anti-apartheid campaign, by promoting negotiation and reconciliation.

His worldwide reputation today hangs on the principles that he applied throughout his life, both before his imprisonment and afterwards. A great man and a great leader.

Well put. This.

 

[Dandyman]

If that's your belief then you are entitled to it.............in factual terms there is compelling evidence to prove he was in the Communist Party.

His motives are not entirely in that respect are not clear, I grant you that, however he would regularly refer to Fidrel Castro as "comrade" and as a statesman he was evidently sympathetic to communist states.

Frankly I don't see that as an issue, its not unusual for groups that use extreme violence to be associated with extreme politics, extreme religion or extreme views..............that's the game.

I happen to know a number of people who were in the SACP in the 1950s and early 1960s who would be interested to see your "compelling evidence". It's certainly true that the ANC and SACP worked very closely together - the simple reason being that the SACP was the only party from 1948 onwards that wholeheartedly opposed Apartheid - but the issues of actual membership were often far less straighforward than you seem to believe.

 

[Dandyman]

The dancing and singing in the streets is to celebrate his life and achievements. They are carrying pictures of him and banners celebrating him. They like to sing and dance over here. Of course, I exclude the Afrikaaners from that generalisation.

I understand your post but not everyone is defined by their "tribe" http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/54995/gail-m-gerhart/bram-fischer-afrikaner-revolutionary

 

[Lord Bracknell]

I happen to know a number of people who were in the SACP in the 1950s and early 1960s who would be interested to see your "compelling evidence". It's certainly true that the ANC and SACP worked very closely together - the simple reason being that the SACP was the only party from 1948 onwards that wholeheartedly opposed Apartheid - but the issues of actual membership were often far less straighforward than you seem to believe.

My recollections are similar, based on what I gleaned from talking with South Africans with SACP affiliations and ANC affiliations in the late sixties.

 

[Northstander]

Imagine being told what side of the street you could walk based on the colour of your skin, or being forced to Move out into townships to allow white skinned people have your home, this happened 60k coloured and Indians in Cape Town Alone in the 50's.

imagine you want to go onto a white sanded beach to have a swim but you can't, the colour of your skin means you're not allowed!!

Not allowed to vote, you are black so you have no right to do so, if you don't carry you're ID cards as a black South African.....it's prison!

Nearly 50k had to give their farmlands up to the whites, they also moved to townships!

Even the level of quality education provided was decided on skin colour!

The things we take for granted as a right is what Mandela provided his people....remarkable!!

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Thought I'd watch the ten o'clock news to catch up on what has been going on in parliament, the flooding threat, and other world and national news.

I find that Nelson Mandela has died ... hardly unexpected ... and for 40 minutes so far there has been nothing except reports about his death, reaction to his death, his life, etc.

We already knew all of this. Each person being interviewed has repeated the same stuff. The BBC correspondents have all said the same stuff. They have repeated the same bits of film time and time again.

Mandela was a great man who I very much admire. Probably one of the world's greatest statesmen. BUT couldn't the BBC have given us five minutes of Mandela at 10pm, then covered the rest of the news, then gone back to Mandela for however long they sought fit for those who wished to watch and hear more?

Typically rubbish handling of the situation by the Beeb.

Clown

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

The BBC have had so many false starts with Nelsons recurring chest infections that they've got a LOT of back catalogue to use up!

Personally I'd rather listen to Africans singing and mourning the saviour of his people than Nichalas sodding Witchell racking on and on about some Royal sprog. This is an epoch making event so deserves to be marked with great solemnity and also great celebration for a life well lived.

It's very easy to imagine ourselves as somehow distant from this event but SA is in no small part our problem which he solved whilst still proclaiming huge respect for Britain despite our hand in the misfortune of his people.

 

[Seagull on the wing]

Imagine being told what side of the street you could walk based on the colour of your skin, or being forced to Move out into townships to allow white skinned people have your home, this happened 60k coloured and Indians in Cape Town Alone in the 50's.

imagine you want to go onto a white sanded beach to have a swim but you can't, the colour of your skin means you're not allowed!!

Not allowed to vote, you are black so you have no right to do so, if you don't carry you're ID cards as a black South African.....it's prison!

Nearly 50k had to give their farmlands up to the whites, they also moved to townships!

Even the level of quality education provided was decided on skin colour!

The things we take for granted as a right is what Mandela provided his people....remarkable!!

A bit like America with their colour bar...Martin Luther King did the same as Nelson Mandela without inciting violence...I'm not objecting to it being on the news,a worthy man,what is annoying is the overload....all last night...today...and even a special programme tonight.
His name will be written in history and he will be remembered throughout time on the anniversary of his death.
I know I can switch over or go for the radio...but everywhere you turn too has a story on NM....