The Auschwitz bookkeeper

[Bombadier Botty]

I just can't help thinking it's sad seeing a 94 year old man being helped in to the courtroom on his Zimmer frame.

I'd personally say killing a baby by swinging it's head against the side of a truck is somewhat 'sadder' than that and to me anyone involved in that process in no matter what capacity is equally culpable, but each to their own.

 

[Triggaaar]

I just can't help thinking it's sad seeing a 94 year old man being helped in to the courtroom on his Zimmer frame.

Just because he's old, doesn't mean he doesn't deserve to be punished. There are many things I find sad about his life, and this isn't one of them.

 

[BLOCK F]

Understandably, there are some strong views on this subject, but I do wonder what many of us NSC'ers would have done living under a regime, that we can, thankfully, only imagine what was like.
There are naturally a lot of idealists amongst young people, as there were then, and they were continually fed hardcore hate and propaganda.Some young people made choices that had consequences way beyond what they could have imagined, and once inside the system,I suggest there was very little they could do except obey orders, if they wanted themselves and their families to survive.
We have the luxury of morally pontificating from behind our keyboards about matters and circumstances that we have never experienced or can imagine.This makes taking a black and white stance rather easier; I suggest that the truth about how each one of us would have reacted in those cirumstances may be rather more unclear.

 

[daveinprague]

This SS officer was PART of the regime. He didnt join the regular army, he joined an entity dedicated to the destruction of the Jewish race, and anybody else they deemed worthy. People didnt join the SS out of a sense of adventure, they joined on the basis of a political belief. They followed orders on the basis of that belief, not a basis of fear of what would happen to them if they didnt follow their orders.
He had a 'cushy' job during the crime. It doesnt mean he wasnt part of the crime. He will go to a secure nursing home where he will receive top care, and not a burial pit. He is a very lucky man to have lived out his life in comfort.

 

[Bombadier Botty]

This SS officer was PART of the regime. He didnt join the regular army, he joined an entity dedicated to the destruction of the Jewish race. People didnt join the SS out of a sense of adventure, they joined on the basis of a political belief. They followed orders on the basis of that belief, not a basis of fear of what would happen to them.
He had a 'cushy' job during the crime. It doesnt mean he wasnt part of the crime.

Exactly, it beggars belief that people would see active participation in the Holocaust, in whatever capacity, as anything other than a 'black and white' issue.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Exactly, it beggars belief that people would see active participation in the Holocaust, in whatever capacity, as anything other than a 'black and white' issue.

Personally I think that here is very, very little that is ever a totally black and white issue, if anything. I would not want to condemn anyone unless I was in absolutely full possession of the facts, which I am not, and I doubt if anyone else on here is either. I have not read in detail all the material on the case.

I am happy to accept that he would have had to choose to be a member of the Waffen SS rather than the regular army, but I doubt whether people would have known at the time of joining about the "Final Solution" and the fact that so many people were going to die so horribly.

And if I had been in his position?...... I like to think that I would have acted more along the lines of Bertolt Brecht, who left Germany well before the war because of his objection to the Nazi regime, or like Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a German Priest who died under the regime because he was true to his faith. But Bertolt Brecht was far older and wiser than this accountant person, and I am so not sure I could have gone through with the Dietrich Bonhoeffer thing. I just thank God I am never likely to be in that position.

 

[Captain Sensible]

Exactly, it beggars belief that people would see active participation in the Holocaust, in whatever capacity, as anything other than a 'black and white' issue.

Agreed on the morals of the holocaust of course. But active participation in the holocaust, can stretch to many areas of the Nazi regime not just the SS. Is each individual a black and white case? Or you could say that as a book keeper he didn't actively participate. The SS was outlawed as a criminal organisation and thousands were tried by Russians and put to death. Had this man been tried along with them, he'd certainly be dead 65 years ago. Yes he survived and lived a life. Yes he was lucky, although living with that nightmare of a place in his memory might not be easy, we can only guess. But he's 94 now, and I don't agree that everyone's personal experiences in the Nazi regime were just black and white cases. Nothing has subsequently come out about this man to say anymore apart from the fact that he was an administrator. I think he could be put to better use teaching holicaust deniers and far right extremists the truth. Which I have heard he had been doing already.

 

[LamieRobertson]

Agreed on the morals of the holocaust of course. But active participation in the holocaust, can stretch to many areas of the Nazi regime not just the SS. Is each individual a black and white case? Or you could say that as a book keeper he didn't actively participate. The SS was outlawed as a criminal organisation and thousands were tried by Russians and put to death. Had this man been tried along with them, he'd certainly be dead 65 years ago. Yes he survived and lived a life. Yes he was lucky, although living with that nightmare of a place in his memory might not be easy, we can only guess. But he's 94 now, and I don't agree that everyone's personal experiences in the Nazi regime were just black and white cases. Nothing has subsequently come out about this man to say anymore apart from the fact that he was an administrator. I think he could be put to better use teaching holicaust deniers and far right extremists the truth. Which I have heard he had been doing already.

Your name certainly suits this post

 

[daveinprague]

Eichman was an administrator as well. To this mans credit, he has spoken out against holocaust deniers, but he still needs to face justice, if just for the survivors. Again, its not as though he is about to enter a harsh prison regime. He will go to a barely secure nursing home, where his every need will be catered for. He came out of it all lightly.

 

[LamieRobertson]

Eichman was an administrator as well. To this mans credit, he has spoken out against holocaust deniers, but he still needs to face justice, if just for the survivors. Again, its not as though he is about to enter a harsh prison regime. He will go to a barely secure nursing home, where his every need will be catered for. He came out of it all lightly.

Justice can be served in various guises

 

[daveinprague]

4 years in a nursing home is pretty decent retribution.

 

[Simster]

Eichman was an administrator as well. To this mans credit, he has spoken out against holocaust deniers, but he still needs to face justice, if just for the survivors. Again, its not as though he is about to enter a harsh prison regime. He will go to a barely secure nursing home, where his every need will be catered for. He came out of it all lightly.

So you're arguing that he needs to face justice, even though he'll go to a nursing home aged 94? If that's the case, in terms of the cost to the tax payer, I can't help thinking it's too little too late.
[MENTION=318]Captain Sensible[/MENTION] encapsulates my thoughts on the matter. Community service preaching the wrongs of the holocaust in front of impressionable youngsters is probably the best outcome at this point.

 

[BadFish]

Eichman was an administrator as well. To this mans credit, he has spoken out against holocaust deniers, but he still needs to face justice, if just for the survivors. Again, its not as though he is about to enter a harsh prison regime. He will go to a barely secure nursing home, where his every need will be catered for. He came out of it all lightly.

None of us know what has happened in his life or what he has put himself through or even if he has attempted to make amends. My guess is that the court that tried him were in possession of many more facts than us. On this basis I am happy to assume that they have made a reasonable decision based on the evidence presented to them.

Until I see otherwise of course.

 

[daveinprague]

So you're arguing that he needs to face justice, even though he'll go to a nursing home aged 94? If that's the case, in terms of the cost to the tax payer, I can't help thinking it's too little too late.
[MENTION=318]Captain Sensible[/MENTION] encapsulates my thoughts on the matter. Community service preaching the wrongs of the holocaust in front of impressionable youngsters is probably the best outcome at this point.

Im not really arguing anything. He committed a crime. He has been tried for the crime and found guilty of complicity in the murder of 300,000 human beings. Ive no problem with him being sentenced to four years in a nursing home where his every need will be catered for. At 94 he is hardly going to be joining any lecture circuit.

 

[alfredmizen]

4 years in a nursing home is pretty decent retribution.

Jealous ?? Just about ready for it yourself arent you ?

 

[Nibble]

The Jewish Holocaust will be debated by millions of people for hundreds of years to come. No one will ever come to a conclusion about the perpetrators. Saome say forgive, some say no punishment is painful enough. Only this bookkeeper can truly know what his feelings or intentions were. With that in mind they should have just sentenced the old Nazi **** to 100 years. He'll unlikely make it through his 4 years so what difference does it make. Bang the murderous old shit up and let people debate his case for another 100 years.

 

[Wrong-Direction]

He showed no remorse in an interview a few years back, he's been lucky to have a wife and family throughout his life which he helped stop hundreds of thousands of having, a suffering death inside at the age of 94 is just a mere pinprick of justice.

 

[Bombadier Botty]

This guy stood guard on the selection ramp (life/death) and sorted money and possessions belonging to murdered jews. Death would be too good for this bloke, whether he's in his 90s or not. Utterly indefensible, no matter how much you try and dress it up.

The Judge: "What you call being a small cog (in the Nazi death machine) is complicity in murder which was perpetrated by people like you thoroughly and without mercy."

 

[Nigella's Cream Pie]

There must be thousands of surviving members of not just the SS but the German and also Russian armies who committed murder, should they be pursued?

They probably can't be, due to lack of evidence whereas documentation exists of the guy working at Auschwitz.

It was also revealed that he wanted out - but requests to transfer to the front were refused.

 

[studio150]

Eichman was an administrator as well. To this mans credit, he has spoken out against holocaust deniers, but he still needs to face justice, if just for the survivors. Again, its not as though he is about to enter a harsh prison regime. He will go to a barely secure nursing home, where his every need will be catered for. He came out of it all lightly.

I don't feel the comparison to Eichmann is valid, as there was a clear difference between their administration duties and therefore involvement in the holocaust. Eichmann was in charge of the department for Jewish affairs and oversaw the get up Jewish ghettos and then moved on to the movement of Jews to the concentration camps, and personally overseeing the transportation of Hungarian Jews following the invasion of Hungry.

I would suggest that the guilt between the two is polarized, and probably explains why the Israel Mossad were willing to capture Eichmann in Argentina and bring him back for trial and secured a death sentence against him.

Yes the current conviction was secured on an administrator but one who was not directly involved in the ordering or organization of the terrible war crimes.