[Albion] the "assistance" priority train ramp post-match

[Quinney]

Is it the club’s remit though? As in - where does the boundary start/finish between the stadium jurisdiction (the Albion) and station (Southern Rail)? Who is responsible for the staffing and stewarding next to the station? I’m going to have sleepless nights pondering this one.

According to the rail staff I was moaning at about the previous train leaving at 60% capacity it’s the clubs staff who allow people onto the platform.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

According to the rail staff I was moaning at about the previous train leaving at 60% capacity it’s the clubs staff who allow people onto the platform.

Maybe they should simply swap the over-zealous club staff policing the Eastbound queue with the under-zealous club staff policing the Westbound queue, where they regularly allow the platform to become dangerously overcrowded before the next three carriage cattle truck trundles in, resulting in a very dangerous scrum to scramble aboard. Must be pretty scarey for little kids or anyone with limited mobility

 

[aftershavedave]

I find some comments rather distasteful on here. The problem is with those able joining the ramp not an issue with anyone with a disbilility stick wheelchair crutch etc. Seriously whether struggling/disabled for reason a, b, c, d, e...z or any combination it doesnt matter i find it offensive that there is a need to justify one struggle/disability etc over another. It isnt some sort of hierarchy.

Quite, and that was not the intention of this thread, it was the dozens and dozens of chancers who head down, looking at phone, tailgate a person who needs that priority. There were two 30'ish chancers just behind us in the queue yesterday. Yes they were porky, but hardly incapable of waiting along with the rest of us. This is the problem, nothing else

 

[jackalbion]

The club may have washed their hands of any kind of responsibility for the trains, but if they're the ones doing the hiring of the stewards to police the priority ramp, then making that work effectively and preventing abuse of the system falls entirely within the club's remit

Believe it’s on track who are responsible who are the contractors hired by the railway

 

[Superphil]

Shouldn’t able-bodied fans stop jumping the queue? That is the issue not what kind of disability should qualify. But please stop suggesting that this is a disability issue and there should be a more draconian processes by which disabled people are allowed to use the ramp

The problem is backlog of queues for able-bodied fans -


I can tell you why from the perspective of someone that struggles both to use public transport and queues:

I use assisted travel from East Anglia on all train journeys because I am too fatigued and in too much pain to walk the long concourses and platforms (and with usually have wheelchair assistance for connecting trains to my pick up point in Sussex ) I’m then taken in a car to the Amex - once at the Amex, I use a stick or crutches with the aid of a mate, to climb up the long slope to the East or West stand where I usually have a seat. Struggle to get through the turnstile (sometimes the gate is opened for me) then with great effort, plough through crowds of people watching monitors and drinking/queuing for refreshment with no idea someone squeezing through them is using a stick and struggling to walk - then it is an effort to get to the steps to the stand. By this time, I am severely fatigued, my legs are wobbly and I’m getting vertigo. A steward usually then assists me to my seat. My sticks or crutches are continuously being kicked out from under me every time someone walks past my seat and I am not able to get refreshments at half time because the queues are too long. I often miss corners or far end goals because of people jumping up in front of me and am literally exhausted by the time I leave. But all of that is absolutely worth it just for the sheer joy of watching my team live, chanting and singing and soaking up the atmosphere and I wouldn’t have missed it for the world.

So, yes, when you are weak on your legs, in great pain or constantly in danger of falling over/losing your balance, dependent on walking aids or in a w/c then of course disabled people should have priority. Why not?

As for stopping able-bodied fans abusing access set aside for disabled people, surely It is a matter of better stewarding if necessary and if fans are caught using the ramp when they obviously don’t need to then institute a fine or one match ban or something. Making it even harder for disabled people to enjoy live football isn’t the answer (IMHO).

If the Club does think of imposing stricter criteria upon disabled people, such as myself, demanding to see a hospital letter from me before I can safely exit the Amex, or demanding that in order to attend football matches, I have to provide personal medical information and a photo ID as well as wear a wristband that identifies me as ‘disabled’, I only hope they will listen to the views of disabled people first, not a bunch of able-bodied fans (righty!) pissed off because some other able bodied people are behaving badly. Although, I somehow think the Club’s tolerance of disabilities is less discriminatory than than to make disabled people feel they have to justify why they need to use a ramp rather than the steps.

Thank you for explaining your reasons

 

[dazzer6666]

Used to park in Lewes and shuttle in and out from there…..the number of pisstakers post-match was ridiculous. Seemed to be the decrepit equivalent of the designated driver - take a walking stick and the other 14 of us will follow, saying ‘we‘re with him’ as you manfully struggle down the ramp.

 

[South Stand Bonfire]

*Dons protective helmet*

Why does anyone require priority to get on the trains? Why can’t a disabled person queue with the rest? They can make it to a football match, they are prepared to use public transport. Sure, as soon as they get to the front of the queue they get the access ramp and full attention of the staff.

It’s a question, not how I feel.

I think you really know the answer to your own question.

 

[Arkwright]

Couple of things.
Why not give disabled access via the front entrance and not the ramp, surely that's easier to police.
And last my regular moan, if your on the platform just get on the first train to Lewes and change, far too many staying on the platform which clogs up the ramp / bridge.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

This. Has to proper security who are wise to the ways of the chancers, can spot them a mile off, and who will call their bluff and kick their butts to the back of the queue if necessary

The type of person I described are the types you usually see on night club doors (or at the entrance to St John @Goldstone1976 ) and from my experience usually can spot, often with just basic interaction to gauge reaction, and then deal with chancers quite easily. Fiercely loyal to the ones they’re looking after…..no time for any others….not tonight son.

 

[Zeberdi]

Couple of things.
Why not give disabled access via the front entrance and not the ramp, surely that's easier to police.
And last my regular moan, if your on the platform just get on the first train to Lewes and change, far too many staying on the platform which clogs up the ramp / bridge.

Which ‘front entrance’ would that be? I wasn’t aware there was another step free entrance from the side of the Station to the Stadium ground - unless you are suggesting removing access to and from the station for disabled people altogether?

IMO words like ‘policing’ and ‘security’ being used to ‘control’ who is allowed to use the ramp, feels oppressive - Suggesting disabled people go through some kind of visual test by a cordon of ‘beefy-bouncers as to whether they are ‘disabled enough’ to use the ramp before they can go down the ramp? I have to say most disabled people would that feel that intimidating - they often already feel too visible for the wrong reasons. As has been said several times not all disability is obviously visible and while some people can walk fine on level/sloping ground, walking up a flight of stairs is a whole extra level of difficultly - are we going to ask people who feel unable to use the steps to lift up their trouser legs to show swollen arthritic knees or produce confidential medical letters that they have to get out in the dark, rainy night to show a ‘bouncer’ they ‘deserve’ to use the ramp? What about visiting fans?

I suspect however, the problem is smaller than some are making out and it will always be the case some fans are just going to moan or feel aggrieved that anyone is jumping the queue unless they are in a wheelchair - even then I suspect some able-bodied fans will question their need for a wheelchair - These are the sort of people that ‘police’ the queue they are standing in shops etc and tell anybody off if they think they’ve pushed in when they haven’t.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

How do you determine whats genuine and not? A wheelchair/crutches/stick may be obvious but some disabilities are hidden. Shaming someone with a protected right for example is not the way forward.If a few others gain advantage its their conscience.

Sorry, I’ve not read the whole thread as this has been discussed before, and it looks like the same old arguments are being rehashed. A few points:

• Reduce the temptation to cheat by making sure that trains are as full as possible when leaving the station.
• No one thinks that people with disabilities that restrict mobility, should not be able to use the priority lane.
• Implement the wristband system properly, and make sure that helpers are issued with wristbands too. In most cases, one helper is enough but the club is unlikely to quibble if the applicant requests two helpers. No disabled person needs 6 or 8 helpers, as is sometimes seen on the ramp. Frankly, if someone does need a small army of helpers it might just have to be accepted that a football match isn’t an ideal outing.
• Let’s stop going on about whether all disabilities are visible. Of course they’re not. The key benefit of wristbands issued in advance is that the stewards don’t have to make that judgement. The club has already looked at the application and agreed to issue a wristband to the person and possibly a helper.
• Have a police presence on the ramp, not just a steward who, understandably, doesn’t get paid enough to get into awkward situations. Police the wristband system by checking. If you don’t have a wristband, you join the other queue.
• I don’t buy the argument about a lot of people having to travel together. Why do they? But if there are truly exceptional circumstances for a one-off occasion, the club might issue extra wristbands valid for that day only.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Fair enough but not everyone is on benefits or drives a disabled car or is even registered disabled even though they are and how are visiting disabled fans supposed to use any proposed disabled access?

It’s a draconian suggestion that only certain disabled people could use a disabled ramp (ie those that have prior to the match day proven their disability ). I book assisted travel on trains (when I am well enough to travel), I don’t have to prove I am disabled to do so - I don’t have to prove I am disabled to use a disabled seat on public transport and I certainly don’t have to prove that I am disabled to use a disabled access or exit to any public building.

This is all about making life easier for able-bodied people - this whole discussion- so let the burden of making any changes required be imposed on able bodied people - disabled people have enough to cope with just to get themselves to a live match.

Look, this thread is not an attack on people with disabilities. It’s an attack on able bodied people taking the piss out of you by using the priority lane to jump the queue.

If a person is requesting priority access, it’s really not unreasonable to be asked to provide some sort of evidence to the club — IF they request it. Again, this is to protect your interests, not to undermine them. Make sure you’re on the right side of the argument here. You seem to be quite knee jerk about this issue, for reasons I think I understand, but which might be misplaced.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Reading through the thread it does look to be more of a problem on the Eastbound side. Maybe the same set of chancers doing it on a regular basis? Wouldn't do any harm for stewards to select a single match and challenge them properly, just to give them the good news that they don't have free rein to do exactly as they please

 

[Zeberdi]

…those who do have disabilities that should let them skip the queue will also probably have a pa with them. If there's a group of 10 walking down, ask one of them to show their pa ticket. Unless the disabled person has kids with them, there's no reason they can't go onto the train without just their pa. It's a personal assistant, not a friends and family assistant.

This is absolutely not true.

Not all disabled people have a PA or personal carer with them. I travel on trains alone (when I am well enough) and have a mate who is another Brighton fan with me (who is very fit) when we enter the stadium - I can’t ever remember seeing a disabled person having 10 people with them either or the ramp ‘being full of people’ abusing it. It is also ridiculous to suggest a family with a disabled person among them, should have to split up, travel back on the train separately if they have a ST/bought seats together and travelled together to Falmer. Are half the family supposed to get a taxi home at the other end or stand around in the rain and dark with somebody with chronic ill health while the rest of the party turn up an hour later?

Btw - I don’t even use the train at Falmer but I do need to use that exit for other reasons.

Let’s stop going on about whether all disabilities are visible. Of course they’re not. The key benefit of wristbands issued in advance is that the stewards don’t have to make that judgement. The club has already looked at the application and agreed to issue a wristband to the person and possibly a helper.

How are away fans supposed to use this system? How do fans ‘prove’ to the club that they need to use the ramp? (Not all disabled people are on benefits/registered disabled - many in fact are not). How do you prove the wristband anyone (including the able-bodied assistant) is wearing has actually been issued to them not someone else. Are we going to make disabled persons use photo ID? Are all away fans expected to register with the club in advance of a match to get a wristband? What about buying tickets on the exchange at short notice? Applications for wristbands takes time then you‘d have to wait days in the post for it to be delivered. How often would fans have to under go a medical review by the Football Club to continue the justification for them having ‘disabled’ priorities? It is insulting that able-bodied people are suggesting that disabled fans have to go through hoops just to get out of the stadium safely when it should be the able-bodied fans carrying the burden of any extra policing/hoops..

It is neither reasonable or practical to demand that everybody who have trouble getting down the steps must go through some medical assessment by the club to see whether they ‘deserve’ to have a wristband.

No one thinks that people with disabilities that restrict mobility, should not be able to use the priority lane.

That’s exactly what people are suggesting when they suggest disabled people have to go through a physical/medical assessment inspection before using the ramp either by the club or stewards - people can have restricted mobility on steps but not on level ground/slopes. Not all ‘restricted mobility’ is obvious. I very much doubt the club will make any changes to how disabled fans attend matches without the full consultation and agreement of disabled fans - as said earlier, personally I am not averse to wearing a wristband but for some disabled people it may not be a practical/workable solution.

If a person is requesting priority access, it’s really not unreasonable to be asked to provide some sort of evidence to the club — IF they request it. Again, this is to protect your interests, not to undermine them. Make sure you’re on the right side of the argument here. You seem to be quite knee jerk about this issue, for reasons I think I understand, but which might be misplaced.

It is NOT to protect my interests that people are making the suggestions they are, it is to protect the interests of able-bodied people pissed off because other able-bodied people are jumping the queue so don’t be patronising. I have never had an issue not being able to access the ramp because it is clogged up with able-bodied people using it - read my earlier posts. Fine though, I will bow out now, because if you are going to start making personal comments about how I am responding to some of these suggestions (some of which are uninformed of the issues or patronising), or suggesting I am on the wrong side of the argument, when all these suggestions (apart from @tom Hark Preston Park’s) will make it harder for disabled people to access the Stadium, this is clearly the wrong thread for me to express the POV of someone that is disabled.

 

[Cotton Socks]

This is absolutely not true.

Not all disabled people have a PA or personal carer with them. I travel on trains alone (when I am well enough) and have a mate who is another Brighton fan with me (who is very fit) - I can’t ever remember seeing a disabled person having 10 people with them either. It is also ridiculous to suggest a family with a disabled person among them, should have to split up, travel back on the train separately if they have a ST/bought seats together and travelled together to Falmer. Are half the family supposed to get a taxi home at the other end or stand around in the rain and dark with somebody with chronic ill health while the rest of the party turn up an hour later?

Btw - I don’t even use the train at Falmer but I do need to use that exit for other reasons.


How are away fans supposed to use this system? How do fans ‘prove’ to the club that they need to use the ramp? (Not all disabled people are on benefits/registered disabled - many in fact are not). How do you prove the wristband anyone (including the able-bodied assistant) is wearing has actually been issued to them not someone else. Are we going to make disabled persons use photo ID? Are all away fans expected to register with the club in advance of a match to get a wristband? What about buying tickets on the exchange at short notice? Applications for wristbands takes time then you‘d have to wait days in the post for it to be delivered. How often would fans have to under go a medical review by the Football Club to continue the justification for them having ‘disabled’ priorities? It is insulting that able-bodied people are suggesting that disabled fans have to go through hoops just to get out of the stadium safely when it should be the able-bodied fans carrying the burden of any extra policing/hoops..

It is neither reasonable or practical to demand that everybody who have trouble getting down the steps must go through some medical assessment by the club to see whether they ‘deserve’ to have a wristband.


That’s exactly what people are suggesting when they suggest disabled people have to go through a physical/medical assessment inspection before using the ramp either by the club or stewards - people can have restricted mobility on steps but not on level ground/slopes. Not all ‘restricted mobility’ is obvious. I very much doubt the club will make any changes to how disabled fans attend matches without the full consultation and agreement of disabled fans - as said earlier, personally I am not averse to wearing a wristband but for some disabled people it may not be a practical/workable solution.

Fine I will bow out because if you are going to start making personal comments about how I am responding to some of these suggestions (some of which are uninformed of the issues or patronising), or being on the wrong side of the argument, when all these suggestions will make it harder for disabled people to access the Stadium, this is clearly the wrong thread for me to express the POV of someone that is disabled.

Why is it ridiculous to suggest that people split up? I had to split with some of my group at Wembley as there simply wasn't enough room on the train. I took my pa with me & left the others there. They were quite capable of making their own way to the next meeting point. I have already said that those with kids will obviously have to go with them. When you're well enough to travel by train on your own what do you do when you get to the other end or while your waiting for the first train? We're talking about Falmer to Brighton/Lewes here. The trains don't take an hour in between each one and there are buses to Brighton Station. We're discussing a solution to stop people using the disabled ramp when there's sod all wrong with them. They probably wouldn't have to 'prove' anything, they could ring the club in advance asking for a wristband and explain the reason why. Make it a max of 4 people travelling (excluding kids). I can't see many people except those with mobility problems would bother ringing the club in advance. What would your solution be? There doesn't seem to be many solutions to stop people taking the p**s and all the while the people are taking the p**s, people who do need the ramp are stuck behind them.

 

[dsr-burnley]

Part of the problem seems to be that some of us see disability as a binary issue - you're either disabled, or you're not. As we get older (this is my mother's experience, not mine) mobility decreases gradually.

When we're fit, walking half a mile and standing in a queue for an hour is not a problem. As we get older, or in the case of illness or physical disability our condition gets worse, then walking and standing becomes problematic or even impossible. This is before we reach the stage that we can be considered disabled. But we need the ramp.

It's the same at airports, as it happens. Part of the reason there is so much more wheelchair use is because people who would in no way be considered disabled, are physically incapable (or at least would greatly struggle) to do the mile+ walking and hour+ standing that a flight (at least at Manchester) involves.

 

[Zeberdi]

Part of the problem seems to be that some of us see disability as a binary issue - you're either disabled, or you're not. As we get older (this is my mother's experience, not mine) mobility decreases gradually.

When we're fit, walking half a mile and standing in a queue for an hour is not a problem. As we get older, or in the case of illness or physical disability our condition gets worse, then walking and standing becomes problematic or even impossible. This is before we reach the stage that we can be considered disabled. But we need the ramp.

It's the same at airports, as it happens. Part of the reason there is so much more wheelchair use is because people who would in no way be considered disabled, are physically incapable (or at least would greatly struggle) to do the mile+ walking and hour+ standing that a flight (at least at Manchester) involves.

Spot on.

 

[Zeberdi]

I’ve just had a long conversation with B&HA support services.

Firstly, they agreed absolutely, some of the suggestions being proposed (proof of illness, photo IDs, removal of ramp, splitting of ramp, splitting up groups, disabled people who can use a train don’t need the ramp or a pa etc) would impose an undue burden on those already coping with disability themselves or in the family and would be discriminatory. There are no plans to restrict those with hidden disabilities from using the ramp or making it more onerous for them to do so. The wristband system works well in their view (and they answered my questions about away fans too) - and stewards do check fans for wristbands if there might be any possibility fans are abusing the system.

Why is it ridiculous to suggest that people split up?

Because if a party have bought tickets together and attending the match together, they should be able to exit the grounds together - I asked support services about this specifically and they totally agreed - the system in place allows all those that purchased tickets together to use the ramp together. To expect disabled fans not to travel/exit the grounds in the group they attended the match with is discriminatory when you don’t impose that expectation on any other fans

We're discussing a solution to stop people using the disabled ramp when there's sod all wrong with them

Who are you or any other fan to judge that someone has ‘sod all wrong with them’ - many disabilities are hidden - that is the point.

What would your solution be

For fans to be a little more patient about waiting, less judgmental towards those who might have hidden disabilities maybe ?

- and if they see people they think are using a ramp when they think they don’t need to, then complain to a Steward at the time or contact the Club directly as I have and discuss the issue with them. That is according to support services.

and all the while the people are taking the p**s, people who do need the ramp are stuck behind them.

That has never happened to me - in all the time I have been attending the Club with my current level of immobility- in fact, the stewards have been exceptionally quick to clear the ramp of any jokers if any disabled people need to use it in my experience.

I also think the Club’s disability policies are top class - without those in place, it would be nigh on impossible for some fans to attend matches but if you have a problem with any of the above that I have said, I suggest you take it up with the Club.

By all means discuss other ways to deal with the crowding issues but as I said, leave disabled people to do what they need to do and for the Club to decide what the criteria should be for applying for a ‘hidden disabilities’ wristband.

 

[Cotton Socks]

I’ve just had a long conversation with B&HA support services.

Firstly, they agreed absolutely, some of the suggestions being proposed (proof of illness, photo IDs, removal of ramp, splitting of ramp, splitting up groups, disabled people who can use a train don’t need the ramp or a pa etc) would impose an undue burden on those already coping with disability themselves or in the family and would be discriminatory. There are no plans to restrict those with hidden disabilities from using the ramp or making it more onerous for them to do so. The wristband system works well in their view (and they answered my questions about away fans too) - and stewards do check fans for wristbands if there might be any possibility fans are abusing the system.

Because if a party have bought tickets together and attending the match together, they should be able to exit the grounds together - I asked support services about this specifically and they totally agreed - the system in place allows all those that purchased tickets together to use the ramp together. To expect disabled fans not to travel/exit the grounds in the group they attended the match with is discriminatory when you don’t impose that expectation on any other fans

Who are you or any other fan to judge that someone has ‘sod all wrong with them’ - many disabilities are hidden - that is the point.

For fans to be a little more patient about waiting, less judgmental towards those who might have hidden disabilities maybe ?

- and if they see people they think are using a ramp when they think they don’t need to, then complain to a Steward at the time or contact the Club directly as I have and discuss the issue with them. That is according to support services.


That has never happened to me - in all the time I have been attending the Club with my current level of immobility- in fact, the stewards have been exceptionally quick to clear the ramp of any jokers if any disabled people need to use it in my experience.

I also think the Club’s disability policies are top class - without those in place, it would be nigh on impossible for some fans to attend matches but if you have a problem with any of the above that I have said, I suggest you take it up with the Club.

By all means discuss other ways to deal with the crowding issues but as I said, leave disabled people to do what they need to do and for the Club to decide what the criteria should be for applying for a ‘hidden disabilities’ wristband.

Is this situation getting worse? I counted over 100 people abusing the system today, one group was about 20 strong! A lot of fellow queuers moaning about this too.

Clearly the stewards are not doing their jobs, but I don't recall this being a particular issue in the past? Some people clearly have zero manners or respect for their fellow fans.

The post above is the original post. So you think it's fine for a group of 20 to go through because one of them has a hidden disability?
Do not accuse me of judging people with a hidden disability, I have a hidden disability which requires me to have a pa, getting on a train by myself is not even an option for me. I wouldn't be able to attend matches if it wasn't for the club's excellent disability policies. You're lecturing the wrong person and making incorrect assumptions that I know nothing about either the clubs policies or peoples experiences of having a hidden disability. I've had my disability for over 30 years and have dealt with loads of crap from people because it's hidden. If I were waiting on the ramp and saw a group of 20 in front of me, I'd tell them they were taking the p**s to expect to all go together. Because while they all pile on there are others waiting behind them. Maybe I'm just a bit more considerate to other disabled people and wouldn't expect a whole group of us to go through and leave others on the ramp when I know I only need one person with me.

 

[aftershavedave]

The post above is the original post. So you think it's fine for a group of 20 to go through because one of them has a hidden disability?
Do not accuse me of judging people with a hidden disability, I have a hidden disability which requires me to have a pa, getting on a train by myself is not even an option for me. I wouldn't be able to attend matches if it wasn't for the club's excellent disability policies. You're lecturing the wrong person and making incorrect assumptions that I know nothing about either the clubs policies or peoples experiences of having a hidden disability. I've had my disability for over 30 years and have dealt with loads of crap from people because it's hidden. If I were waiting on the ramp and saw a group of 20 in front of me, I'd tell them they were taking the p**s to expect to all go together. Because while they all pile on there are others waiting behind them. Maybe I'm just a bit more considerate to other disabled people and wouldn't expect a whole group of us to go through and leave others on the ramp when I know I only need one person with me.

well said indeed. you have summed up the general frustration very well. to add to the original post, having made it to the final level, one lady steward had clearly had enough of her colleagues' poor work and was going absolutely crazy at the steward at the top of that ramp