That AV Vote

[withdeanwombat]

At last count,60 NSC ers have voted. How many are registered to vote ? Does the 28 leading vote equate to more than 50% ?

Until the last chaotic election which the Tories should have won easily,first past the post has pretty much worked.Yes,yes,the LibLab pact yadayada.

AV could give more coalitions,more confusion,and will still NOT lead to more than about 70% turning out to vote even on the sunniest,warmest of days,even when the issues are serious and the political differences stark.Stark until your little party has influence beyond merit and a chance for otherwise second rate MP's to become junior chaircounters.......sorry,ministers whilst turning their backs on their stated policies.

Lots of people are lost to politics beyond blaming the government even though they themselves couldn't be arsed to vote.

I seriously hope this meddling with the voting system goes down with all hands.

Rochdale will be a draw.Rochdale win on corners.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

First of all, the current system is NOT "First Past the Post". Just what "post" are we talking about? No - the current system elects the candidate who is most popular.

The main problem with AV is the value that is given to second and third preference votes. If I give Candidate A my first choice and Candidate B my second choice, and Candidate A is then eliminated, it would not be correct to say that I now favour Candidate B with the same fervour that I supported Candidate B. I may give him/her only grudging support or, at worst, I may have put him/her in second place just to stop Candidate C from getting in. The vote I have therefore given to Candidate B does not, therefore, carry the same weight as the vote I gave to Candidate A. In other words, AV delivers the "least worst" choice which, as far as I am concerned, delivers a weakened parliament.

I would fervently worship a Green government, I vote for them with delight and joy. I do care who runs the country though, and have thus often voted tactically by ignoring the greens for a red or yellow. Just because I may vote for another party less enthusiastically, it doesn't mean I don't care if they win or not, so no, it is not 'least worst' or a 'weaker vote'.

 

[keaton]

Right I've got a good anolog.

10 of you are going out for a drink but you can't decide which pub
3 vote for the Revenge with it's jelly and stripppers night
2 vote for The Great Eastern
2 for the Evening Star
1 for Earth and Stars
1 for Lord Nelson
1 for Battle of Trafalgar

You knock out the bottom three who all vote for Great Eastern as their second choice.
Then you knock out the two evening star voters who both vote for Great Eastern too, meaning you all go to the Great Eastern.
While more people wanted to go to the gay bar than any other individual pub, the fact that the majority would prefer to go to an old man's pub with good bitter is reflected in the outcome

 

[Leekbrookgull]

As it stands 28 or 43% for A/V. 24 or 37% for FPTP. However interestingly 12 or 18% No to A/V but Yes to P/R. Now if 'that vote' was to vote where would it go ? Can you asume as they did not vote for FPTP that they would take A/V as the better of two evils ?

 

[seagullondon]

I did a 3000 word essay on AV for my politics degree this year and after look at both sides of the argument, i dont think changing to AV will make much of a change at all. In some of the recent elections it has been less proportional than FPTP. Referendums are a rarity in this country and i for one am very dissapointed PR is not an option

 

[beorhthelm]

Can you asume as they did not vote for FPTP that they would take A/V as the better of two evils ?

i wouldnt make that assumption, some pro PR might vote against AV. there is a risk once we have AV the push for PR is killed off... of course a vote against AV would also likly kill off PR too. tricky one for that group.

where does their second preference lie?

thinking about it, the referendum should include the PR option, and be conducted with single transferable vote to judge the outcome properly.

 

[8ace]

Party leaders in favour of AV:
Nick Clegg (Lib Dems)
Ed Miliband (Labour)
Caroline Lucas (Green)
Alex Salmond (SNP)
Ieuan Wyn Jones (Plaid)
Margaret Ritchie (SDLP)
Nigel Farage (UKIP)
Robin Tilbrook (English Democrats)
Alan Craig (Christian People's Alliance)

Party leaders campaigning for a NO vote:
David Cameron (Conservative)
Nick Griffin (BNP)
George Galloway (Respect)

If I was going to base my vote on how much it would damage party leaders I don't like, I'd definitely want to damage the No list...

Why is Nick Griffin against it? I'd have thought smaller parties lilke BNP would benefit from AV

 

[Waynflete]

I did a 3000 word essay on AV for my politics degree this year and after look at both sides of the argument, i dont think changing to AV will make much of a change at all. In some of the recent elections it has been less proportional than FPTP. Referendums are a rarity in this country and i for one am very dissapointed PR is not an option

I agree that it won't make much difference initially in terms of overall outcome, but where it will make a difference is in conferring greater legitimacy on the result because it has received broader endorsement from the electorate. It may also make a difference in the long term, because if people are free to vote for smaller parties without wasting their votes, there may be a gradual build-up in support for parties like the Greens.

 

[Waynflete]

Why is Nick Griffin against it? I'd have thought smaller parties lilke BNP would benefit from AV

Why would common sense come into anything that Nick Griffin thinks?!

 

[DTES]

Why is Nick Griffin against it? I'd have thought smaller parties lilke BNP would benefit from AV

Smaller parties yes - extreme parties no.

To be elected under AV you need votes from 50% of the electorate. The BNP will never achieve that in any constituency in Britain.

Under the current system, you just need the most in the first round.

For example - as happened in several council elections - the BNP could get about 30% while the "main three" split pretty equally about 20-25% each. Under FPTP (current system) the BNP get elected. Under AV, the second preferences would be shared out until someone gets 50% - and the BNP lose out as there's no way enough Lab/Lib/Tory voters would rather the BNP get in than their rivals. (I hate the Tories, but would put them ahead of the BNP...)

This obviously applies to all "extreme" parties whether left, right or whatever...

 

[8ace]

Smaller parties yes - extreme parties no.

To be elected under AV you need votes from 50% of the electorate. The BNP will never achieve that in any constituency in Britain.

Under the current system, you just need the most in the first round.

For example - as happened in several council elections - the BNP could get about 30% while the "main three" split pretty equally about 20-25% each. Under FPTP (current system) the BNP get elected. Under AV, the second preferences would be shared out until someone gets 50% - and the BNP lose out as there's no way enough Lab/Lib/Tory voters would rather the BNP get in than their rivals. (I hate the Tories, but would put them ahead of the BNP...)

This obviously applies to all "extreme" parties whether left, right or whatever...

Cheers, makes perfect sense now and for that twat Galloway as well.

 

[seagullondon]

I agree that it won't make much difference initially in terms of overall outcome, but where it will make a difference is in conferring greater legitimacy on the result because it has received broader endorsement from the electorate. It may also make a difference in the long term, because if people are free to vote for smaller parties without wasting their votes, there may be a gradual build-up in support for parties like the Greens.

Indeed it will be fascinating to see what happens if it is voted for in the referendum. Being a politics student it is very interesting times indeed

 

[seagullondon]

Cheers, makes perfect sense now and for that twat Galloway as well.

George Galloway is brilliant.

 

[Leekbrookgull]

Surely one of the biggests arguements away from FPTP is that in so many seats YOUR VOTE DOES NOT COUNT. History tells us that almost all Gen/elections are decided in less than a hundred seats and for the first time in my voting life my vote did count (the seat changed hands) you could argue to a degree it works both ways,but does it ?

 

[DTES]

George Galloway is brilliant.

Sorry - this is a different debate for a different time and place maybe, but I'm afraid I couldn't resist posting this...

 

[Danny-Boy]

I wondered why Millitantband was so adamant about not campaigning on this with Cleggy, until someone showed me a leaflet produced by "Labour against AV" in the pub last night.

Yes Cleggy was all over the front of it with his pledge board for AV and also against the Uni fees.

The amazing thing to me is how quickly the position of Deputy Prime Minister, formerly a virtually unknown post, has become prominent under the Cleggmobile. When he was voted LD leader, a Labour-supporting friend of mine (sometimes) mocked me "Cleggism? Who the hell ever heard of Cleggism?"

He's not mocking now, just moaning instead.

 

[Danny-Boy]

Right I've got a good anolog.

10 of you are going out for a drink but you can't decide which pub
3 vote for the Revenge with it's jelly and stripppers night
2 vote for The Great Eastern
2 for the Evening Star
1 for Earth and Stars
1 for Lord Nelson
1 for Battle of Trafalgar

You knock out the bottom three who all vote for Great Eastern as their second choice.
Then you knock out the two evening star voters who both vote for Great Eastern too, meaning you all go to the Great Eastern.
While more people wanted to go to the gay bar than any other individual pub, the fact that the majority would prefer to go to an old man's pub with good bitter is reflected in the outcome

Maybe the others don't want dongers shoved in their face. If you're gay, "you can go your own way" as Fleetwood Mac put it so eloquently.

 

[Danny-Boy]

PR seems to equal Pricks Required at present, thanks to Anolog man. Two fingered digital, is wot I say.

 

[Superphil]

If we had AV in football, would we be keeping up with SCC?

 

[DTES]

PR seems to equal Pricks Required at present, thanks to Anolog man. Two fingered digital, is wot I say.

Sorry, what?