Term time Dad loses in the Supreme Court

[beorhthelm]

Wilko told you in his very first reply to your anti-teacher baiting post that the teachers don't get the same holidays as the kids. You then chose to ignore that and assume that he was just bad at maths instead because 40 days does not equal 13 weeks. He then told you repeatedly again that it wasn't a maths issue and when the penny finally dropped instead of apologising you then made a snide comment about his temper.

You're a bell end.

we've also had a poster point out the contract with teachers is for 195 days, which is 39 weeks. 52-39=13. who is correct?

 

[hopkins]

The posts on this subject are so southern with well paid jobs it's embrassing. That's why I'm ashamed of 90% of our supporters, most of them look like they've just come from a board meeting.

 

[Titanic]

...And finally, with the "it's OK for rich kids to go off on skiing holidays.... " etc, if those kids are at private school:..

and if those rich kids are at state school, they will just suck up the fine for a cheaper and quieter holiday on the slopes. It penalises the poorer families and acts as no deterrent to the rich.

 

[lost in london]

First world problems mate ......having kids is expensive I know but the privilege of a 'free' (yes I know we all pay taxes) state school system is not. I'm just happy I'm not in some war torn, famine ravaged country worrying about where the next meal is coming from.

It's like the old saying, there's nothing worse than finding a worm in your apple - yes there is your heartless ******* - famine in Africa.

 

[hopkins]

First world problems mate ......having kids is expensive I know but the privilege of a 'free' (yes I know we all pay taxes) state school system is not. I'm just happy I'm not in some war torn, famine ravaged country worrying about where the next meal is coming from.

That last comment ! Do you live your life by 3rd world standards ? Never waste anything ? Patronising tool.

 

[Iggle Piggle]

Im no expert although I would assume travel companies face higher charges themselves during the holidays from hoteliers etc.

To get back on topic rather than lobbing insults about, I had this discussion with a bloke who owns his own travel company last night in the boozer. His view of life was that :

1. He'd rather the judgement had gone the other way. It would make a less seasonal focus on bookings and generate more business all year round
2. If the judgement had gone the other way, it wouldn't necessarily mean reductions in pricing in the summer (maybe marginal), just pricing going up at other times
3. School holidays generally subsidise cheaper holidays at other points of the year. It's classic supply and demand whereby the Valentine's evening dinner was used as an analogy. Look on any cottage website to see the jump in pricing during summer holidays (Double, sometimes treble).

 

[blue'n'white]

My point of view is this - I don't have kids and don't want to go on holiday to a place resembling a kindergarten so I take my holidays when the kids are at school. I know when school holidays happen so book around those times. How fair is it to me if I'm always guessing when little Johnny's parents are going to take an extra week out of school ? And Disneyland "cultural" ? Do me a favour !


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[beorhthelm]

Im no expert although I would assume travel companies face higher charges themselves during the holidays from hoteliers etc.

of course they do. and its overlooked that the rest of Europe is also on holiday during summer putting up the demand/prices of holidays then, its not going to change much because we allow children to take time off school to go on holiday out of season.

 

[Wilko]

So, it's OK for the already privileged rich to stump up a small fine they can easily afford to go somewhere they have probably been several times before just to have a cheaper/quieter holiday on the slopes... but the poor kid, hoping for the holiday of a lifetime in a caravan in Wales, who can't afford the fine because it would double the cost of their holiday... tough luck mate. Doesn't really seem like an enlightened policy to me, it looks more like the teachers/head avoiding the issue and hiding behind a poor one-size-fits-all policy.

I agree with your first point totally. I have no idea what is has to do with teachers though, they have no say on the holidays of the children whatsoever or the law, the fine etc.

 

[Wilko]

tbf I think its slightly different in the sense that if I had a training day it would not result in a mass of other people having to arrange child care etc

Inset days are on the school calendar at least 6 months in advance, The inset days for school year 17/18 at my school for example are already published.

 

[Wilko]

But if you live in Wales, the authorities allow 10 days off for holidays. This is my problem with this ruling. It doesn't apply to private schools, or those in Wales.
In Scotland, you cannot take the time off, but if you do, then there isn't a fine.

Either the education in this country is important, or it isn't.

That is a fair point, I did not know that about Wales and Scotland so I have learnt something today. I agree that is a mixed message being given out too.

 

[Wilko]

we've also had a poster point out the contract with teachers is for 195 days, which is 39 weeks. 52-39=13. who is correct?

I will clarify. That is 13 weeks CONTACT TIME, in other words when the kids are in. Those are contact hours when you must be in school, the other time is non contact time which is more flexible because it is based on planning, marking, exam stuff, conferences etc. It is a bit like saying someone who works from home is having a day off, that would be rude would it not?

 

[Titanic]

I agree with your first point totally. I have no idea what is has to do with teachers though, they have no say on the holidays of the children whatsoever or the law, the fine etc.

The law only exists because teachers / headteachers copped out of making the decisions they always used to make in the best interests of the individual children/families concerned (and I know, because I used to discuss them with the headteacher when I was Chair of Governors for our local primary school).

That probably happened in order to avoid confrontation with other pushy parents - probably the rich ones who now pay up to get what they want.

 

[Notters]

If you are someone pulling your kid out of school for a cheaper holiday you are basically valuing money over your child's education.

I couldn't disagree more with this and am surprised at the attitude of people on here. Maybe it's just based on the sort of holiday you take. When we go on holiday we might go to a historic site one day, a museum the next, a hike in the mountains the next and a day on the beach the next. This combined with ordering food in a foreign language etc. A child is going to learn far more on such a holiday than they ever would at school. I can understand it being a problem during say GCSEs and A-Levels but at primary school!? Come off it.

 

[Notters]

I take it you didn't holiday in the Costa del Sol that often then?

I agree with your underlying premise though... perhaps a week in Glasgow would meet the criteria...

We went to the Costa Del Sol with our daughter in October. We only ate spanish food. We stayed in a spanish villa. We met up with my wife's spanish friend in Malaga, etc.

 

[beorhthelm]

I will clarify. That is 13 weeks CONTACT TIME, in other words when the kids are in. Those are contact hours when you must be in school, the other time is non contact time which is more flexible because it is based on planning, marking, exam stuff, conferences etc. It is a bit like saying someone who works from home is having a day off, that would be rude would it not?

so why is training not done in this non-contact time, along with planning, marking, exam stuff, conferences etc? a bit like saying when someone is at work they can do training for their job.

 

[Bozza]

A child is going to learn far more on such a holiday than they ever would at school.

I'm not attacking you personally, although it may read as though I am, but I really hate that phrase and the similar derivations that I've read over the last 24 hours or so.

It's simply not true, is it? Kids learn a shit load at school and you'll have no idea, when you book a term-time holiday, just what they will be missing out on. And I'm not just talking about academically but the experiences they have which leads to the shaping of decent soft skills (to use a crappy workplace phrase).

I've not bothered to read much of this thread because it's clearly going to be a divisive subject where neither side is going to be able to convince those on the other that their view is the right one.

I won't take my kids out of school for holidays because I think it sets a bad example of ducking out of the responsibilities we have. I also think teachers have a tough enough job without, potentially, each of the 30 or so kids in their class all going AWOL for different parts of the school year, and having to try and make sure that anything missed by each of them is suitably covered off when they return.

If I couldn't afford the holidays we want to take during school holiday times then I'd perhaps consider I should have a better paying job, that we should have a cheaper house, that we should eat out less or, perhaps, go to to the Albion less. In short, manage our household finances to better ensure we could pay the going rate for a holiday in school holiday times. Like many things in life, nice holidays aren't a right and if you can't afford them without taking advantage of off-peak prices then perhaps you should consider how your finances are structured.

I appreciate there are some families where their profession can make it difficult if not impossible to take leave during school holidays but that's not most of us.

 

[Bold Seagull]

I couldn't disagree more with this and am surprised at the attitude of people on here. Maybe it's just based on the sort of holiday you take. When we go on holiday we might go to a historic site one day, a museum the next, a hike in the mountains the next and a day on the beach the next. This combined with ordering food in a foreign language etc. A child is going to learn far more on such a holiday than they ever would at school. I can understand it being a problem during say GCSEs and A-Levels but at primary school!? Come off it.

It's based on your assumption that unauthorised absences are not a problem in state schools, and that all families are taking their kids on educational enriching holidays. As with any set of rules, the majority of sensible, law abiding people are not the problem or who the rules are set for.

I've been on school trips with my Primary School and kids lunch boxes have included just a packet of monster munch and a twix and that was it for the day! Every term the head faces a battle with attendance and ensuring all kids are in school. That battle is undermined if they are constantly demanding attendance to one set of parents, but on the other hand granting another child a week off school for a holiday.

Schools simply don't have the time or resource to differentiate a set of rules for some kids and a set of rules for others, so to put it simply, the actions of a few impact on what the rest of us are able to do. If school attendance and performance were not a problem, we wouldn't be seeing this measures. However, Ofsted and HMIs consistently identify schools that have a record of poor pupil attendance with having poor results right across KS1, KS2 and KS3.

 

[Notters]

I'm an ex teacher, so when weighing in I am slightly biased, but I believe the decision to be 100% correct.

Yes, there is an argument that children need experiences out of the classroom (although a trip to Florida isn't exactly educational).

Of course it is.

 

[SeagullSarge]

I couldn't disagree more with this and am surprised at the attitude of people on here. Maybe it's just based on the sort of holiday you take. When we go on holiday we might go to a historic site one day, a museum the next, a hike in the mountains the next and a day on the beach the next. This combined with ordering food in a foreign language etc. A child is going to learn far more on such a holiday than they ever would at school. I can understand it being a problem during say GCSEs and A-Levels but at primary school!? Come off it.

You are a prime example of a family who enrich/supplement their children's learning with valued time away, informing them of a wider world than a teacher can provide during lessons. However, not all families are like this, with trips to Disney, Universal or even a holiday which is purely laying on a beach for a couple of weeks bringing nothing to a child's education.

I agree, there is certainly a case that primary school children can be taken out of school for holidays as their level of development within one/two weeks is mild compared to that of a GCSE pupil. For those aged 11-16 school is mightily important for the rest of their lives and a holiday should only be taken during breaks (you could argue that with revision this should be postponed as well!).

Unfortunately, there is a wider belief from a lot people throughout the country that teachers have an easy life, spend inset days in a duvet and most of their breaks drinking gin and taking a pay check. This is simply not true, teachers work throughout the holidays lesson planning, producing schemes of work, setting up curriculums for the terms ahead. This is on top of a year which sees most secondary teachers working way beyond contact hours, a lot of teachers work until 10pm each night making sure lessons are ready for the following day and most work 6/7 days a week. They are undervalued, underpaid and quite frankly, looked down on with distain by a lot of parents who should be grateful that they put so many hours into making sure their kids get the best kind of education possible. Teachers are not allowed to take leave during term time, they are not aloud to swan off to the beach for two weeks during school time as they are contractually not allowed to do so, there is no cheap holidays for them or their families, ever!

I am not a teacher, but it is time that parents in this country begin to respect not only their kids education, but the people who are educating them. A holiday can be taken anytime throughout the term breaks, it really does not need to be during school time.

Obviously not all parents fall into my rant above, the guy from the Isle of Wight does. Interestingly though the DoE have agreed to pay all his legal fees, this will come straight out of the tax payers pocket and is money which will not go towards schooling, is that fair on the law abiding parents?