Term time Dad loses in the Supreme Court

[Triggaaar]

Don't apologise to me, I'm just a school governor, you've obviously a far greater in-depth knowledge than the opinion of teachers, ex-teachers, statistical surveys and the like.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

That would be good if that's all there was to it. Parents have been fined because they've had a close relative die, had to make funeral arrangements, & take their children out of school for a few days.

It's the inflexibility which is so wrong.

For all the holier than thou teachers, and those saying children shouldn't have days off. These were all for family funerals, not holidays.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/educatio...hildren-out-of-school-for-family-funeral.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ndmother-s-funeral-Pakistan-away-40-DAYS.html

https://www.gransnet.com/forums/other_subjects/a1204497-Taking-Children-out-of-School-for-Funerals

 

[BensGrandad]

You lied to the school. What did you expect? You actually applied for the holiday, got denied, then instead of just accepting the unauthorised absence, you phoned in to say she was sick. What are the school supposed to do?

Perhaps as it was only for 2 days he should have not even mentioned it to the school just phoned in sick on the day b but obviously you cannot sanction and agree that.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Incidentally, the law only applies in England.
The school attendance rules set out in the Education Act are applicable to English state schools.

Private / independent schools are free to set their own attendance rules
In Wales headteachers may authorise absences in certain circumstances, though unauthorised absences can be penalised with fines; each local authority interprets the rules differently
In Scotland Local Education Authorities (LEAs) can issue attendance orders to parents and failure to give appropriate reasons for absence from school can result in fines
In Northern Ireland parents aren't fined for unauthorised absences but can be referred to the Education Welfare Service.

 

[nicko31]

8 pages and finally someone hits the nail on the head. It was reported that holidays take up about 25% of unauthorised leave from school. So what exactly is being done about the other 75%? Surely kids that are regularly absent are far more disruptive to the class than one who has an excellent attendance and achievement rate yet goes away for one week in the term.

What this decision does is remove from head teachers the ability to exercise discretion where merited.

Indeed, discretion is what is needed. Looks like common sense will now go out the window

 

[Thunder Bolt]

You lied to the school. What did you expect? You actually applied for the holiday, got denied, then instead of just accepting the unauthorised absence, you phoned in to say she was sick. What are the school supposed to do?

To be fair, it looks as though the school didn't consider it at all. He gave plenty of notice with his request, but it was ignored until the last possible moment, when I imagine somebody just said 'Tell him no'.

 

[Stat Brother]

So the struggle for schools is getting all kids into school. Pleading with parents that just cannot be bothered to bring their kid in every day as to the importance of their child's education.

If the alternative was being at home with your kids, you'd have thought this was a no brainer.

 

[GT49er]

You lied to the school. What did you expect? You actually applied for the holiday, got denied, then instead of just accepting the unauthorised absence, you phoned in to say she was sick. What are the school supposed to do?

School's fault*. Verbally agreeing it, and then denying it at the last minute. One day's notice is not sufficient to cancael a holiday. Totally unreasonable behaviour.

*Technically, the government is to blame; Head Teachers were allowed discretion, until the 'we can't allow common sense around education' section of the D. of E. banned Head teachers from using their common sense and using discretion in these cases..

 

[Deleted member 2719]

So, in short, you're a martyr and want to work the rest of us to death.

Ha ha, hardly.

How's is your pension , sick pay and holidays

 

[portlock seagull]

Not really. I work in a niche of an industry that is extremely London-centric so there are very few decent jobs outside of a particular district. I was already working in London when he was born and I made the decision on his education when I earned enough money there to be able to send him to a private school (because he is academic and it provides an environment that he thrives in). He is only with me part time anyway and I have always flexed my time as much as possible to be able to spend as much time as possible with him.

I have now taken the choice to stop working for someone else and work for myself and it so happens that I am able to work with one of the few companies based locally. School fees are now a stretch so other things have been sacrificed - like holidays - term time or otherwise. It's a short term loss for a long term gain (hopefully) career-wise but still providing continuity for him.

The other isn't academic, being far more interested in drama, music and sport than anything that requires reading a book. She was a financial/time drain in different ways... travelling all over the country for her gymnastics/football/musicals/etc.

Sounds similar to my story, minus the kids! But I sacrificed London's higher salary and security of working for someone else to take a gamble on building a small new business working for myself mainly. But boy do I not miss the City, Corporations and all that! And I have a lot more control of my destiny. Trouble is, I'm the Captain!!

Anyway, so far so good. I wish you all the best similarly. Good on yer, Son, as they say. Or should that be Father?

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

in you opinion as an ex-schools teacher ( there are a lot of teh usual suspects spouting on here) do you believe that a 4 year old in reception that is taken out of school for 1 week will ruin their chances of going to University or gaining good educational qualifications? I say that as the ex inspector of schools head on Breakfast time suggested that by taking children out of school, whatever their age will lead them to have a shite life

As I said in my original post, 99% of students will be affected negatively, in an academic sense, by having time off school, yes.

There are a tiny number of pupils who either find school and academia easy or have the wherewithal and drive to make up for lost time, but I promise you that these pupils are an absolute minority.

Now, the reality is that the one hypothetical four year old you're discussing may fall within the 1% who can cope, but that's missing the overall point of opening the floodgates. Most children are negatively affected by absence from school and their grades are usually represented by this over the long term. I was actually a secondary school teacher, so I can't tell you from experience how primary school children are affected specifically, but I can give you numerous examples of students of mine that missed lessons and suffered as a result grade wise.

So in that regard, I stand by my initial standpoint about the decision. Childrens' grades are generally worse when they miss school. Holidays in school time make up 25% of missed lessons. Ergo, it is a big causer of absence. If parents believe that their children would benefit more from being on holiday than at school, then so be it. Pay the fine, go on holiday and shut up. After all, the fine is usually tiny anyway compared to the money you'd have saved by going in term time. And let's be honest, that's all this is actually about - saving parents money.

 

[drew]

You lied to the school. What did you expect? You actually applied for the holiday, got denied, then instead of just accepting the unauthorised absence, you phoned in to say she was sick. What are the school supposed to do?

Have you ever heard the phrase 'read the whole question before you start your answer' or something very similar? Well, in this case, read the whole post. He played by the rules and was treated dismissively by the school who should have responded far sooner than the day before they were due to go especially as the form tutor was aware and had indicated they didn't think there would be a problem. Then to come back with a petty rule about obtaining a sick note from a Dr which affects the amount of time GPs have to treat others.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/569881/Sick-notes-wasting-GPs-time-doctors-schools-change-rules

Perhaps if his daughter has sickness or diarrhea then he should ignore the normal 48 hour rule and get her into school asap.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

Moshe Jnr has missed loads of days of Primary School for various holidays/events and it hasn't done him any harm.

The fact that he gets hardly any meaningful homework and that we get little or no specific feedback on his progress are far more significant than a few missed days.

He'll be off on April 21st for the Norwich match. I'll make it easier on the school by phoning in sick for him so they don't have to put down an "unauthorised absence" on their stats.

I'm sure his father's attitude to education will set him in good stead for the rest of his life. You're a cracking role model. I envy all of his future employers - "sorry boss, I thought I'd just have a day off work today cos my dad used to do it all the time. I'll get him to call in sick for me if you'd prefer".

 

[Thunder Bolt]

As I said in my original post, 99% of students will be affected negatively, in an academic sense, by having time off school, yes.

There are a tiny number of pupils who either find school and academia easy or have the wherewithal and drive to make up for lost time, but I promise you that these pupils are an absolute minority.

Now, the reality is that the one hypothetical four year old you're discussing may fall within the 1% who can cope, but that's missing the overall point of opening the floodgates. Most children are negatively affected by absence from school and their grades are usually represented by this over the long term. I was actually a secondary school teacher, so I can't tell you from experience how primary school children are affected specifically, but I can give you numerous examples of students of mine that missed lessons and suffered as a result grade wise.

So in that regard, I stand by my initial standpoint about the decision. Childrens' grades are generally worse when they miss school. Holidays in school time make up 25% of missed lessons. Ergo, it is a big causer of absence. If parents believe that their children would benefit more from being on holiday than at school, then so be it. Pay the fine, go on holiday and shut up. After all, the fine is usually tiny anyway compared to the money you'd have saved by going in term time. And let's be honest, that's all this is actually about - saving parents money.

But only in England. Scottish and Welsh children's education doesn't seem to matter.

Btw I've just heard on the news that Suffolk fined over 600 parents. Richmond didn't fine one.

It's a postcode lottery, not concern for children.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Why isn't the holiday season staggered across the country?

As happens in Germany. That said I was told of some poor soul who left a position in Munich, last lander to have their holiday, and joined a school in Berlin, first, and didn't have any summer holiday.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Have you ever heard the phrase 'read the whole question before you start your answer' or something very similar? Well, in this case, read the whole post. He played by the rules and was treated dismissively by the school who should have responded far sooner than the day before they were due to go especially as the form tutor was aware and had indicated they didn't think there would be a problem. Then to come back with a petty rule about obtaining a sick note from a Dr which affects the amount of time GPs have to treat others.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/569881/Sick-notes-wasting-GPs-time-doctors-schools-change-rules

Perhaps if his daughter has sickness or diarrhea then he should ignore the normal 48 hour rule and get her into school asap.

The whole story should have been chase the form up with the school office several times, book an appointment with the head if necessary. Form tutor can give their opinion that they don't mind but clearly the school's decision. In terms of priorities, let's be fair low on a heads list of things to do, so I think it would have been reasonable to chase prior to realising you didn't have a decision the day before.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

But only in England. Scottish and Welsh children's education doesn't seem to matter.

Btw I've just heard on the news that Suffolk fined over 600 parents. Richmond didn't fine one.

It's a postcode lottery, not concern for children.

Interesting point. As I'm sure you can tell from my posts, I'm someone that does genuinely care about education and that is a damning statistic. But surely you'd agree that it's better to be proactive in trying to keep children in school rather than allowing them to come and go as they please?

 

[LlcoolJ]

8 pages and finally someone hits the nail on the head. It was reported that holidays take up about 25% of unauthorised leave from school. So what exactly is being done about the other 75%? Surely kids that are regularly absent are far more disruptive to the class than one who has an excellent attendance and achievement rate yet goes away for one week in the term.

What this decision does is remove from head teachers the ability to exercise discretion where merited.

Exactly. And just what I said earlier in the thread. It should be a common sense decision but that's been removed.

Having said that, we haven't yet been fined for going to Cuba in October/November so if the fine itself is at the discretion of the school then I suppose that may be why.

The incorrect thing is that it will still have to be classed as unauthorised absence which affects the school's Ofsted rating, despite the class teacher and head teacher being in favour of it being authorised. They were not allowed to class it as that.

This is the point about government meddling.

 

[Albion in the north]

But only in England. Scottish and Welsh children's education doesn't seem to matter.

Btw I've just heard on the news that Suffolk fined over 600 parents. Richmond didn't fine one.

It's a postcode lottery, not concern for children.

Did a little bit of research after I posted and the 2 councils local to me, Calderdale and Kirklees, fined 3446 parents/guardians in the 15/16 school year.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Interesting point. As I'm sure you can tell from my posts, I'm someone that does genuinely care about education and that is a damning statistic. But surely you'd agree that it's better to be proactive in trying to keep children in school rather than allowing them to come and go as they please?

I think parents should be allowed to have common sense. By all means go after the persistent truants, but to prosecute parents for taking a child to their grandfather's funeral is ludicrous.
There are compromises, but some schools aren't doing that.