We will never know but if you look in the WeAreBrighton link, it is one possibility. Another is that when he did pick him he wasn't that impressed or it could be that he is worried that Dunk has too many red cards. Southgate will never come out and say why (rightly so) so it is all guesswork.
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[Albion] Telegraph Football Writers top defenders
- Thread starter Lindfield by the Pond
- Start date
We will never know but if you look in the WeAreBrighton link, it is one possibility. Another is that when he did pick him he wasn't that impressed or it could be that he is worried that Dunk has too many red cards. Southgate will never come out and say why (rightly so) so it is all guesswork.
Iggle Piggle
Well-known member
- Sep 3, 2010
- 5,955
Hardly. We've had poor England Teams for years that SAF would struggle with. It's only the 2004 and possibly 2006 vintage up until now that were good enough to win anything since 96 in my view. Some good teams managed by good managers (Sven was alright and a bit luckless) and others which were poor to average & managed by managers who weren't much cop either (Capello & Mclaren).
We now have an England team that is the envy of the world for it's youth development and a pathway to the team (even the Germans are now trying to copy us) with attacking talent that would walk into most Champions League teams but insist on playing 7 behind the ball and trying to grind out 1-0 wins in the big games. This is a tactic which has failed twice - or 3 times if you want to include the Nations league semi final - when it matters against any half decent side but I bet we stick with the outdated tactic in the next big game we play probably with the same results whilst Southgate points to "yeah but look how Portugal won Euro-16" as if it is somehow relevant when the 2 squads are contrasted.
As I said at the start, we are successful in spite not because of Southgate. He's light years behind the likes of Potter in terms of tactics. He's done well creating a spirt and culture within the camp but his tactics are about 10 years behind all the other park the bus merchants who've been found out in recent years.
Stato
Well-known member
- Dec 21, 2011
- 7,367
He has had a very strong group of players and fairly easy runs to the latter stages of tournaments. His man management looks to be very good. His leadership also seems good. However, tactically he has been found severely wanting every time he has been tested. In the World Cup he lost to the only two very good teams he played. In the Euros he lost the final to a team that wasn't actually that good. In the Croatia game he got an early advantage and gave up the midfield by trying to defend what he had, allowing them to regain confidence and then to dominate. He failed to learn the obvious lesson and repeated the same mistake when we scored early against Italy. If he's going to prove himself as a manager, rather than as a players' friend and FA spokesperson, he needs to show that he can make decisions that help the players during a game, rather than just in their preparation. Those of us who criticise would argue that his supporters would struggle to point to a single game during his tenure when he out-thought an opponent who enjoyed better player resources or did something during a game that turned things decisively in his team's favour. It's not hard to find occasions where he has actually done the opposite.
As far as the Dunk issue is concerned, there is a reason that is not connected to his club form that he doesn't get a sniff. None of us know what this is, so people make guesses: club affiliation, attitude, age, that nonsense about Rashford dribbling past him. Personally I have even wondered whether there is any connection with the sense I get that Dunky and Harry Maguire really don't seem to like each other very much. Southgate said on appointment that he won't play favourites, but he obviously does in Maguire's case, picking him when he's out of form, when he's injured, when he's in a jail cell. I suspect that most managers and pundits asked to name a Maguire replacement would mention Dunk very quickly. They have a lot of the same attributes.
Since picking Dunk for two squads when Maguire wasn't available, then telling him to keep it up and that he is in his thoughts, Southgate has made no evident effort to watch him play live and despite Dunk visibly doing exactly as he was asked and much much more, he has never mentioned his name again, other than to answer a media question saying that he picked White ahead him for reasons of age/investment in the future. At that time he couldn't even bring himself to say that he thought Dunk was a good player, just that he knew that Graham Potter was happy with him. Its worth mentioning in response to this that Players like Maguire, Keane, Mings and Coady who are all in the same age bracket as Dunk, have continued to be selected ahead of him even through periods of bad form for their clubs at times when Dunk was obviously performing well.
This season Dunk has been ever present in leading currently the third best defence in the league. He has just finished a season where he was the top scoring defender in the country, he can play in a four, or in any position in a three. He captains his club. He is dominant in the air. His passing is exceptional. Maguire is injured for this squad and there is no footballing reason why Dunk wouldn't be in contention. Once again, he wasn't even mentioned.
The only conclusion is that his face doesn't fit. Were he playing for one of the money sides, the media would have asked why. He doesn't, so we will not find out. All the time we don't find out, people will make guesses and accusations. For Brighton fans, Southgate's Palace connection, whilst not being a serious possibility, is an obvious throwaway accusation to make in frustrated response to this puzzle.
Greg Bobkin
Silver Seagull
- May 22, 2012
- 16,039
Personally I'm quite happy Dunk hasn't been picked for England. I've zero interest in internationals so the further he stays away from potential injuries that could impact on his club the better.
I think we could have (should have) won the WC in 2002 personally. But I take your point. But look at the likes of Sven and Capello- both were absolutely world class managers in the prime of their careers, and they couldn't get to a final with the so called 'Golden Generation'. Look at some of the players they had. The fact is that international football is REALLY hard, and some of the best managers in the world haven't managed to win a trophy with some of the best squads in the world. Southgate came within a penalty or two of managing it, so I don't see how anybody can claim he hasn't done the best job of it so far. I agree I'd love us to attack teams more, and it is frustrating how sparingly we used the likes of Grealish and Foden, but I'd far rather what happened this time than limping out to Iceland or losing to the first moderately good team we come up against like we normally do.
I also agree he is behind the likes of Potter and Pep and co tactically. But what's the answer? Sven and Cappello were miles ahead of Southgate in terms of experience and tactics, but couldn't unite the squad properly. Who's going to take that job who would do better than a semi-final and a final in the last two tournaments? It would be incredibly harsh to boot him out now. He has to have one more chance, which fortunately comes in little over a year's time. And any progression at all this time means winning the World Cup.
They won 17 consecutive games in the Euros in qualifying and the finals. They scored more goals than anybody else. What do you mean they weren't good? They were clearly the best team in it.
Most of the rest of what you say makes sense. But as someone said earlier, sometimes managers don't fancy a player, for whatever reason. If he wasn't a Brighton player we wouldn't even be discussing it. If he played for Palace then the vast majority of this board would think Southgate was absolutely right.
Stato
Well-known member
- Dec 21, 2011
- 7,367
Sorry, I wasn't clear. It's unfair to say that they are not a good side. I meant that they weren't very good in the match. They were absolutely there for the taking, rattled after our goal. The only way they had back into the game was the one that Southgate bewilderingly gave them.
It's good for the club, but tough on Dunky himself. He should have 10s of caps by now............way, way more than Tyrone ****ing Mings (for example), anyway.
It's got nothing at all to do with Southgate being Palace........personally think he's just been incredibly unlucky, including with with timing. Even we all knew that he had a fairly regular rick or red card in him until not too long ago (at least at the time he could have been breaking into the squad, soon after we got promoted) so probably wasn't fully 'trusted' by Southgate (particularly when he had so many other options) to do a job, and now he's pretty much eliminated that, he's 'too old' for how Southgate and the FA operate.
schmunk
Why oh why oh why?
He never picked Jude Bellingham when he was a Birmingham City player, but he's all over him now he's at Borussia Dortmund.
FACT
Explain that one away, "so-called-Commander".
- Apr 5, 2014
- 25,922
There are other countries in Europe- with decent teams too. The Italian coach was a decent one as well. By that view, England have never had a decent coach. Which is, of course, a silly statement.
I think Dunk is a very good Premier League defender as well. But, with a neutral hat on, i don't think he is an automatic England pick. He has been picked before by Southgate, so he clearly has his own view.
You've got me there. His Villa bias clearly stopped him picking a 15 year old for the international side.
Not Andy Naylor
Well-known member
And there's an important point. What had he ever done in management to justify being given the England job? Got Middlesbrough relegated, which even Steve McClaren couldn't manage? Finish bottom of the group stage of the 2015 under-21s' Euros despite England being the top seeds, and having Harry Kane and Danny Ings up front? Wear a blazer and tie and be polite and non-confrontational to the FA board? Yes to all three of those ...
Stato
Well-known member
- Dec 21, 2011
- 7,367
Indeed. My question for Southgate's fans would be which club side would appoint him post England if they needed a new manager? I'd argue that none of the big six would consider him, Leicester - No, West Ham - No, Everton - No, Wolves - No, not Portugese enough, us - No, not tactically good enough. Not Southampton, not Leeds, He'd be looking at Villa or Palace where he might have a chance because of his playing connections, or someone desperate for any warm body in the door like Newcastle. The areas where Southgate has excelled in the job are the responsibilities of an assistant manager, or an executive. I fully expect that when he does leave the job, he'll most probably be kicked upstairs at the FA to something like the job Trevor Brooking used to do.
Dave the hatosaurus
Well-known member
Absolutely superb post well thought out and composed !
I guess you are right and we may never know the whole story . ( unless in a future biography maybe
)
Pavilionaire
Well-known member
- Jul 7, 2003
- 31,264
One other point about Dunk that seems entirely lost on Southgate is his ability to get the best out of whoever his defensive CB partners are, whether they be youngsters coming through like White / Goldson / Webster or older heads like Greer / Veltman / Duffy / Hunemeier. Everyone who has played alongside him has excelled and/or played the best football of their careers.
Surely, this ability to make effective partnerships with both traditional-style CBs and ballplaying CBs makes him ideal for the international side where tactical flexibility is so important.
Surely, this ability to make effective partnerships with both traditional-style CBs and ballplaying CBs makes him ideal for the international side where tactical flexibility is so important.
Mellor 3 Ward 4
Well-known member
Great post.
Iggle Piggle
Well-known member
- Sep 3, 2010
- 5,955
The answer for me is that the coaching and analysis needs to be improved. Take the penalty shoot out as one example. Sancho, Rashford and Saka rushed on to take a penalty. Whatever decision making process they used to get there was flawed. I suspect there was statistical usage as many were bandied around afterwards "Grealish missed his last one" "Sterling missed his last three" but they don't take into account other factors. Rashford and Sancho barely touched the ball beforehand. Grealish suggests to me he has the big game mentality. Sterling has taken the winning penalty albeit in the Caraboa cup. We'd worked out our best takers on paper but in practice? It was a cluster. Taking us as an example, with Blooms statistical approach to winning money, I can't believe we'd have made those errors and our back room operation is a very smart place with some very intelligent direction albeit I take the West Brom game last year as a counterpoint when we talk penalties. It should be the case that the National team has a better set up than BHAFC, not the other way round. There's something I didn't think i'd type in 2004 and not something that is a particularly controversial statement either.
I also agree with your point about it being hard. There is only a tournament every 2 years and injuries, poor squad depth and luck all play their part. I suppose my central argument is that Sven had no luck. Injuries to key players at key moments especially Rooney in 2002. Southgate has had the opposite. Injuries to opposition players, Draws opening up, a squad depth that no other manager has had yet we still can't get over the line. Given our links with Ashworth and youthful squad, Potter for next England manager post Qatar? Not even the FA would go Aidy Boothroyd after all.
It's not really an important point though, is it? I don't think anybody outside the FA thought his appointment was justified. The FA will claim it was a stroke of genius in a well-thought out strategy, when the reality was probably that he was the only guy available who would want it at the time. But we are where we are, and he has achieved more than numerous highly experienced and decorated managers have, some with arguably better squads. so it's difficult to argue that it wasn't a good appointment. He's also the only England manager I can remember that can genuinely claim clear progress- a clear increase in quality and a semi-final and then a final in two consecutive tournaments. It takes years of planning to win a World Cup, and he's going to get the opportunity to put that into practice. That won't please the I-must-have instant-success merchants who want to tear everything up and start again at the first hurdle, but our own club have shown how having a long term vision and plan not only makes sense, but works.
Apparently they practiced penalties over and over again in training, and the 5 takers were the ones with the best stats. It's all very well saying 'I think Grealish has the big game mentality' but surely the best 5 penalty takers should be taking the penalties? I agree (with hindsight) it was a bad move to bring on Rashford and Sancho to take them when they'd barely touched the ball, but Rashford hit the post and Sancho's was saved. We're talking a couple of cm either way from England winning a tournament, and people lauding Southgate for managing a penalty shoot-out so well. We so nearly did it, and Southgate has earnt the right for one more go.
Let's not forget this is an absolute world away from England's shoot-out defeats in the 90s when they decided at the time of the shoot-out who fancied taking a penalty!
Potter for England wouldn't surprise me, but I think he probably needs a bigger job than this first. Unless he actually managed to get us top 8 and kept us there for a few seasons.
I'll hazard a guess BumleyStandChat are having a similar discussion about Mee and Tarkers.