[Football] Sven's selection conudrum, can we solve it?

[lawros left foot]

My 2006 starting XI:

Seaman
Neville Ferdinand Terry Cole
Hargreaves
Becks Lamps Downing
Rooney Crouch

Sorry no room for Stevie G. Playing a diamond as was the mode.

You’d leave out Gerrard and Scholes?
One I can understand, but not both.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

He had a very successful career before the England job though.

Winning the UEFA Cup in 1982, with only part time footballers, after beating the Bundesliga winning Hamburg team (4-0) that would go on to win the Champions League (well, the European cup) the next season is one of the greatest accomplishments in modern football. As far as I know its the only semi-professional team to win a big cup in Europe since the UEFA Cup started in 1971.

His results with England were pretty average - one hand he made some weird decisions and had a good generation, on the other hand England had some poor luck in shootouts/ronaldinho-events during his years and a lot of managers have been worse.

His failure in the Premier League/Championship came as no surprise to me though. A big part of his success in Portugal and Italy was that he brought something they had never seen: English football. Zonal defending, 4-4-2, the extremely detailed and systematic tactics of Roy Hodgson & Bob Houghton. Very few Italian/Portuguese sides knew how to deal with it. In England however, it was household knowledge and that advantage was lost.

Very well put.

He did make some weird decisions, though. Andrew Johnson, knocking in plenty of goals as a centre forward, and Sven plays him on the wing, almost as if 'well, you lot wanted me to pick him and, look, he's shit like I thought'. Weird.

 

[MattBackHome]

You’d leave out Gerrard and Scholes?
One I can understand, but not both.

At the time I wouldn't have, but looking back now, and forcing myself you a) think about positions first and not shoehorn anyone in and b) based on that picking the most effective for each spot, that's what I'm left with.

I appreciate that the footballing world, particularly the North West would look at me like an idiot.

Not to rehash a 20 year old argument but there just isn't room for more than one of those three.

Appreciate I may be completely wrong on this though.

 

[WATFORD zero]

What I never understood with that 'Golden Generation' was the complete disregard for short, quick passing and movement. I never thought that selection was the problem, it was style of play.

As I remember, it was always get the ball to Scholes, Gerrard, Beckham, Lampard and then stand back and watch what they can do

 

[Doc Lynam]

What I never understood with that 'Golden Generation' was the complete disregard for short, quick passing and movement. I never thought that selection was the problem, it was style of play.

As I remember, it was always get the ball to Scholes, Gerrard, Beckham, Lampard and then stand back and watch what they can do

Didn't Sven play Schole's on the wing sometimes to try and shoehorn him in?

 

[dazzer6666]

———————-Nancy Dell’Olio Dellaglio

Ulrika Jonssen — Faria Alam —- Escort A — Escort B



That’s the defence sorted.

I always saw Jonsson as being very good up front personally.

 

[Eeyore]

He had the strongest England line up of my time. The 2006 team should have gone on to win that tournament. It was the strongest side England have taken to a World Cup since 1970- and the path was opened up for them.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Didn't Sven play Schole's on the wing sometimes to try and shoehorn him in?

There is no doubt that Beckham, Scholes, Gerrard and Lampard were excellent football players. They just needed to be told to play it short and move. Football is a simple game. Spain proved it.

It wasn't formations, it was far simpler than that.

 

[vegster]

I think this may have been tried. I definitely remember a 5 man midfield with Beckham as a sort of Pirlo type defensive midfielder- don't think it worked (it may have been a 4-5-1 thinking about it)

we had enough top level centre backs at the time to play 3 of them and Ferdinand would have been a terrific sweeper. Perhaps Neville could have been a RWB and move Beckham into the midfield 3. Alternatively keep Beckham out wide and personally I'd have Hargreaves or Carrick in that midfield ahead of Joe Cole (who could be a good impact sub)

Trouble is, Beckham couldn't tackle, dribble or head and didn't know the " Dark Arts " of either buying a foul or fouling and getting away with it, these are essential as a DM.

 

[Doc Lynam]

There is no doubt that Beckham, Scholes, Gerrard and Lampard were excellent football players. They just needed to be told to play it short and move. Football is a simple game. Spain proved it.

It wasn't formations, it was far simpler than that.

Watched Frank Lampard talk about playing for Sven and he said Stevie G and himself were always a player short in midfield as other teams were playing midfield diamonds, as shown and he said by Spain!

Basically they were out numbered, it was completely formation based.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqP8AvbfYwk

@9:50

 

[Robdinho]

Ironically, it was the 5-1 trouncing of Germany by Sven's England which put 3 at the back firmly out of fashion for years though.

 

[Easy 10]

Timely thread. Yesterday afternoon, I watched the entire 90 minutes of England v Argentina in the 2002 World Cup in Sapporo on BBC iPlayer (where Beckham scored the pen for the 1-0 win). Sven's starting midfield was:

Scholes - Hargreaves - Butt - Beckham

Head in hands with Scholes on the left, he was completely ineffectual and anonymous there (Butt was brilliant throughout though, btw). Sven's hand was forced when Hargreaves went off injured after about 25 minutes - chopped down by a certain long-lank greasy-haired Pochettino, who was utter FILTH throughout and lucky to stay on the pitch, Collina went easy on him. Anyway, Hargreaves was replaced by Trevor Sinclair who came on and went left wing, wth Scholes tucking inside. England were INSTANTLY better and took charge - Butt and Scholes knew each others games inside out, which made it such a no-brainer to start with them in CM. This Argentina were no mugs, they were 2nd faves behind Italy for the tournament, but England (with Owen, Ashley Cole, Beckham, Seaman, Rio, Campbell and Scholes in their prime) gave them the runaround for long periods and fully deserved the win, despite a rocky last 20 when the Argies threw everything at us.

That truly was an outstanding collection of players, that Sven criminally failed to get the best of. Great game though, I recommend a rewatch if you've got a spare couple of hours. Shout out as well to the fan in the crowd in a classic centenary Skint Albion shirt that the camera picked out a couple of times.

 

[Doc Lynam]

Couple of days old.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCSv87ffQRE

 

[hart's shirt]

Great game though, I recommend a rewatch if you've got a spare couple of hours. Shout out as well to the fan in the crowd in a classic centenary Skint Albion shirt that the camera picked out a couple of times.

I was there.

Afterwards a lot of England fans stayed in Sapporo park all night jumping in the fountains and celebrating with some Japanese workers who were going home from work late and fancied an impromptu party.

Briefcases, suits and ties ended up in the water.

 

[hart's shirt]

Watched an interview with Lampard and he spoke about him and SG constantly getting out numbered in midfield.

Here's another interview from 2017 with Lampard, Gerrard and Ferdinand talking about it.

A case of club over country and the formation.

Should've been so much more.

 

[Easy 10]

I was there.

Afterwards a lot of England fans stayed in Sapporo park all night jumping in the fountains and celebrating with some Japanese workers who were going home from work late and fancied an impromptu party.

Briefcases, suits and ties ended up in the water.

Superb. I've never been to an England game in the World Cup, but its on my bucket list.

Wasn't you in the Skint shirt was it ?

 

[Weststander]

I was there.

Afterwards a lot of England fans stayed in Sapporo park all night jumping in the fountains and celebrating with some Japanese workers who were going home from work late and fancied an impromptu party.

Briefcases, suits and ties ended up in the water.

Did you also go to the 1-5 win in Munich?

 

[hart's shirt]

Superb. I've never been to an England game in the World Cup, but its on my bucket list.

Wasn't you in the Skint shirt was it ?

It wasn't me in the shirt - I was way up in the stand.

But yes, very memorable indeed. And redemption for Beckham 4 years on. Not his best penalty but it went in.

Nice dive as well by Owen for the penalty. It didn't quite level up Maradona's cheating in '86, but it knocked them out and that felt very good.

 

[hart's shirt]

Did you also go to the 1-5 win in Munich?

I did. It more than made up for that Friday night defeat at Northampton the night before.

Straight down from Sixfields to Gatwick Airport on the last Thameslink train, then checked in at about 6am and in Munich by 9am local time.

A middle aged couple came into one of the bars there during the day.

"You're here for the football."
"Yes."
"You watch a lot of England games away?"
"Yes, we know one of the players."
"Ah, who's that?"
"Michael Owen"
"How do you know him?"
"I'm his mum and this is his dad."
*pause*
"Would you like to have a seat, Mrs Owen?"

Having had that awful final game 0-1 defeat to Germany at Wembley where it was terrible weather, we were worse and Keegan resigned shortly afterwards, it's fair to say that most England fans travelled more in hope than expectation. But Mrs Owen was quietly confident. And she was right.

The thing that really struck me was seeing some German kids walking back to the coach after the game. They'd had their faces painted with the German flag, but it had run down their cheeks no doubt due to the tears shed as the 5 goals went in, and was now around the chin area where it had dried long before I saw it.

I think the match ticket price was around 11 Euros. Straight to the airport and back to Gatwick by about 1am GMT.

Unforgettable.

 

[Easy 10]

It wasn't me in the shirt - I was way up in the stand.

But yes, very memorable indeed. And redemption for Beckham 4 years on. Not his best penalty but it went in.

Nice dive as well by Owen for the penalty. It didn't quite level up Maradona's cheating in '86, but it knocked them out and that felt very good.

Ian Wright in the studio INSISTED there was contact. Alan Hanson was not as convinced

It didn't knock them out on the day. But as you say, Sweden and England qualified from the group, Argentina and Nigeria went home. Cuffing TOUGH group that, wunnit.