Sunday: do you believe in Jesus? Do you love Jesus? Do you trust Jesus?

[DavidinSouthampton]

Lloyd

When I say Christians I really meant official statements from different church organisations regarding discontent over Blair and Bush using God's name for the purpose of going to war.

Agree it was for the oil as far as Bush was concerned but I'm not sure what Blairs motivation was.

Apparently George Bush is methodist.

I am ashamed to say George Bush is supposed to be a Methodist, but I would like to point out that:
1. He is an American Methodist, and they are "different"...... And
2. I remember seeing a headline in a Methodist newspaper a while ago -" George Bush goes against his Church again!."

 

[mothy]

I don't believe in Jesus or god

I do believe in the tooth fairy & father Christmas

 

[Spicy]

Britain is still regarded as a Christian country and I have no problem with that when there are so many religious beliefs in this country and we spend a lot of time trying to not upset one faith or another. My Dad was an atheist but Mum was very proud at having been christened by the Bishop of Lewes. I would like to believe but I am unsure that I do.

 

[piersa]

Wouldn't surprise me. It's a good way to gain someones trust, and make it look like you share the same values.

I've often wondered if wearing a chain and cross could make things swing in your favour under certain circumstances. It could help in a job interview or business deal, not just conning people.

exactly right. Breeds false confidence.

 

[Fungus]

2. I remember seeing a headline in a Methodist newspaper a while ago -" George Bush goes against his Church again!."

He obviously forgot to go before he left home.

 

[symyjym]

Lloyd

I am ashamed to say George Bush is supposed to be a Methodist, but I would like to point out that:
1. He is an American Methodist, and they are "different"...... And
2. I remember seeing a headline in a Methodist newspaper a while ago -" George Bush goes against his Church again!."

There were official statements, from the vatican,world council of churches, archbishops of canterbury plus many many many others, but as said we tend to see things to conform to our world views.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_Iraq_War#Religious_opposition

I never realised Bush was a methodist, apparently he joined his wife's church from the episcopals. Not a group i know much about, although Martin luther King was one of their leaders for a time. He was a loony too, all that dreaming!
My comment was directed towards this country though. The methodists over here were instrumental in the beginnings of the trade union movement, tolpuddle martyrs etc. Trade unions may have a reputation now, but back then they stopped the peasants starving...

On a side note, when i heard that Blair had prayed for guidance on the invasion i signed up to the humanist society that evening.

Yes, I clearly remember the Pope being against the war and I don’t doubt that other branches were against it too. But my point is I never heard any criticism from Church organisations for Bush saying that God told him to go to war, which is basically claiming he has direct contact with God.

Bush used God’s name in vain to falsely to invoke authority.

With regards to Blair “a devout Catholic” he completely ignored the authority of the Pope’s message, yet remarkably he is free to start his Tony Blair Faith Foundation http://tonyblairfaithfoundation.org

There have been no repercussions for them personally for committing their crimes against their religion. They should not even be allowed to step into a Church, let alone run a faith foundation until they beg for their sins of war, and undermining their faith, to be forgiven at the very least.

What they did was no better than ISIS’s claim that they are also carrying out Gods will and it has set a precedent to what we see today. If you claim that God is on your side it gives you license to do absolutely anything you want without repercussions from the church.

If we cannot send the pair of them to The Hague for war crimes yet, the least that should happen is for them to be excommunicated from the Church, but whilst the religious authorities were against the war, they still welcome them with open arms.

Between them they have made a complete mockery of the Chrisitian faith at no cost to themselves, only the church.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Yes, I clearly remember the Pope being against the war and I don’t doubt that other branches were against it too. But my point is I never heard any criticism from Church organisations for Bush saying that God told him to go to war, which is basically claiming he has direct contact with God.

How is that any worse or more absurd than any other person including the pope saying the same?

Bush used God’s name in vain to falsely to invoke authority.

The definition of religion?

With regards to Blair “a devout Catholic” he completely ignored the authority of the Pope’s message, yet remarkably he is free to start his Tony Blair Faith Foundation http://tonyblairfaithfoundation.org

Do all Catholics have to defer to the 'authority of the popes message' ?

There have been no repercussions for them personally for committing their crimes against their religion. They should not even be allowed to step into a Church, let alone run a faith foundation until they beg for their sins of war, and undermining their faith, to be forgiven at the very least.

Any perceived crimes are against humanity. Considering all the misery and suffering caused by belief in religion over human history they should be welcomed into any church.

What they did was no better than ISIS’s claim that they are also carrying out Gods will and it has set a precedent to what we see today. If you claim that God is on your side it gives you license to do absolutely anything you want without repercussions from the church.

Yes it does and has, a good argument against belief without evidence. How do you differentiate who can truly talk to god ?

If we cannot send the pair of them to The Hague for war crimes yet, the least that should happen is for them to be excommunicated from the Church, but whilst the religious authorities were against the war, they still welcome them with open arms.

The same religious authorities who covered up accusations against paedophile priests who were moved to new parishes?

Between them they have made a complete mockery of the Chrisitian faith at no cost to themselves, only the church.

Religion in this case Christianity does a good enough job by itself.

 

[gregbrighton]

This is why I no longer follow a religion. The violence, war, conflict and bitterness religion has inflicted throughout history and in recent times is sickening - the complete opposite of their claims of peacefulness, tolerance and compassion.

We need more people to walk away from religion to stifle the air in which these misguided faiths need to breath. Supporting one side or the other only fans the flames of chaos and hatred for each other.

 

[symyjym]

How is that any worse or more absurd than any other person including the pope saying the same?
The definition of religion?
Do all Catholics have to defer to the 'authority of the popes message' ?
Any perceived crimes are against humanity. Considering all the misery and suffering caused by belief in religion over human history they should be welcomed into any church.
Yes it does and has, a good argument against belief without evidence. How do you differentiate who can truly talk to god ?
The same religious authorities who covered up accusations against paedophile priests who were moved to new parishes?
Religion in this case Christianity does a good enough job by itself.

It's not an exact science nor does it follow a logical, moral or spiritual path.

However, as a non believer, I wouldn't want to undermine people of faith who have good intentions.

I've got an understanding of Jesus the man and the rebel, but not as the son of God, and I would put him alongside great historical philosophers rather than anything supernatural. I think he would be disappointed how he has been misrepresented over the last 2,000 years.

 

[French Seagull]

A hard one to talk about on a board, it should be a personal thing faith and people should find their own way and an acceptable belief. I think that if everyone tried to 'love their neighbours as them self' thought about others feelings and tried not to antagonise them or upset their ways or beliefs the world could be afar happier place.

I would like to believe that somewhere there is some sort of heaven where we can again find our nearest and dearest, some people 'need' to believe, and no one should 'attack' their belief if it doesn't affect them.

Yes sometimes in the name of religion bad things have happened, but also a great deal of good. Unfortunately people can 'use' religion for the wrong reasons, however the world is full of bad and fortunately a lot of good people (some religious /some not). No one should have the right to judge others (that is biblical) and should try to help others.

If you are asking if Jesus existed I'm sure he did. Can people get help from payer I am sure they can.

(expect I will be shot down)

 

[ThePompousPaladin]

...

We need more people to walk away from religion to stifle the air in which these misguided faiths need to breath. Supporting one side or the other only fans the flames of chaos and hatred for each other.

Personally i think the opposite. We need more moderate and educated people to walk to religions. Otherwise i fear we will see more and more extremism.
A vacuum would only let the extremists to get their way.

Of course this is completely debatable, but your argument lacks nuance and seemingly is lumping all religions into the extreme category.

On a side note:
Bishop of gloucester says we should stop referring to god as 'he'.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...d-stop-referring-to-god-as-a-he-a6708401.html

 

[beorhthelm]

Personally i think the opposite. We need more moderate and educated people to walk to religions.

but why would they do that? should educated people just take up religion as a hobby?

 

[ThePompousPaladin]

but why would they do that? should educated people just take up religion as a hobby?

Because there are many positives to spirituality.
If you want to be 'better' at whoever/whatever you are, prayer/meditation is proven to help.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Yes, I clearly remember the Pope being against the war and I don’t doubt that other branches were against it too. But my point is I never heard any criticism from Church organisations for Bush saying that God told him to go to war, which is basically claiming he has direct contact with God.

Bush used God’s name in vain to falsely to invoke authority.

With regards to Blair “a devout Catholic” he completely ignored the authority of the Pope’s message, yet remarkably he is free to start his Tony Blair Faith Foundation http://tonyblairfaithfoundation.org

There have been no repercussions for them personally for committing their crimes against their religion. They should not even be allowed to step into a Church, let alone run a faith foundation until they beg for their sins of war, and undermining their faith, to be forgiven at the very least.

What they did was no better than ISIS’s claim that they are also carrying out Gods will and it has set a precedent to what we see today. If you claim that God is on your side it gives you license to do absolutely anything you want without repercussions from the church.

If we cannot send the pair of them to The Hague for war crimes yet, the least that should happen is for them to be excommunicated from the Church, but whilst the religious authorities were against the war, they still welcome them with open arms.

Between them they have made a complete mockery of the Chrisitian faith at no cost to themselves, only the church.

I am fairly sure I am right in saying the Methodist Church gives itself no power of excomminication. I believe that is purely a Catholic Thing.

I am also aware that the Church gave him/them a rough ride over the war. So what, you may (possibly rightly) say. Having said that, the Church would be markedly more vociferous over here than in the US.

I would also hazard a guess that a good proportion of, if not the majority of, people going on anti-war marches would have been people of faith.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

It's not an exact science nor does it follow a logical, moral or spiritual path.

However, as a non believer, I wouldn't want to undermine people of faith who have good intentions.

I've got an understanding of Jesus the man and the rebel, but not as the son of God, and I would put him alongside great historical philosophers rather than anything supernatural. I think he would be disappointed how he has been misrepresented over the last 2,000 years.

The conveniently vague pick and mix belief many religious people seem to have these days is the last bastion of faith as previously held beliefs have either been factually disproved or shown to be morally repugnant.

From my experience it is impossible to undermine people of faith as no rational argument or inconvenient facts can dent 'faith'.

If Jesus is the person you described I think the word disappointed might be the understatement of the last 2000 years.

 

[DJ NOBO]

Jesus? I've got my own personal one.

Your own Personal Jesus?

 

[symyjym]

Because there are many positives to spirituality.
If you want to be 'better' at whoever/whatever you are, prayer/meditation is proven to help.

Playing an instrument, listening to music, art dance and poetry is spiritual etc etc etc. Even atheists get the spiritual and inspiration bit. We could join a witch’s coven and get something positive out of it.

People use clairvoyants for their fortunes to be told and spiritual mediums to speak to the dead to help them in times of need, but just because I don’t believe in them I still cannot prove that it is not real because other people will swear that they have personally witnessed something supernatural from it.

 

[gregbrighton]

Personally i think the opposite. We need more moderate and educated people to walk to religions. Otherwise i fear we will see more and more extremism.
A vacuum would only let the extremists to get their way.

There are already billions of moderate religious people in these damn faiths but they and their leaders do not do nearly enough to marginalise and dismantle the minority extremist element within their respective religions. It seems to be government departments, the military and taxpayers cash that has to deal with clearing all the chaos up. It is time for the religious leaders and institutions to take responsibility for those inside their religions.

 

[symyjym]

I am fairly sure I am right in saying the Methodist Church gives itself no power of excomminication. I believe that is purely a Catholic Thing.

I am also aware that the Church gave him/them a rough ride over the war. So what, you may (possibly rightly) say. Having said that, the Church would be markedly more vociferous over here than in the US.

I would also hazard a guess that a good proportion of, if not the majority of, people going on anti-war marches would have been people of faith.

If excomminication is purely a Catholic thing, then Blair should be excomminicated because he could have stopped the war when the Pope asked him to.

I believe that anti war march was representative of the country. I could easily hazard a guess and for the sake of the argument, that the majority were hippies and students.

 

[Don Quixote]

If excomminication is purely a Catholic thing, then Blair should be excomminicated because he could have stopped the war when the Pope asked him to.



I believe that anti war march was representative of the country. I could easily hazard a guess and for the sake of the argument, that the majority were hippies and students.

He shouldn't be because he did not do anything that actually warranted excommunication. Besides he wasn't actually a Catholic then anyway.