Stewards!

[Storer68]

But this doesn't have anything to do with whether it's unsafe to actually stand up infront of your seat.

Well the Football Licensing Authority say it is. The Safety at Sport Grounds Act makes it clear that will be considered dangerous

and just note how many times the secription "crushing" appears in the list from the FLA of major sports ground disasters. Underlied disasters occurred in standing areas.

Deaths and Injuries in Major Accidents at British Football Stadia

Year Stadium Cause Deaths Injuries
1888 Valley Parade, Bradford Railings collapse 1 3
1896 Blackburn Stand collapse 5
1902 Ibrox Park, Glasgow Terrace collapse 26 550
1907 Brentford Fence collapse
1907 Leicester Barrier collapse
1914 Hillsborough, Sheffield Wall collapse 80
1923 Charlton Railings collapse 25+
1923 Wembley Crushing 1000+
1924 Burnley Crushing 1 ?
1926 Maine Road , Manchester Barrier collapse
1932 Huddersfield Crushing 100+
1937 Watford Barrier collapse
1937 Huddersfield Barrier collapse 4 *
1938 Fulham Barriers collapse
1939 Rochdale Athletic Ground # Roof collapse 1 17
1946 Bolton Crushing 33 400
1957 Shawfield, Glasgow Barrier collapse 1 50
1961 Ibrox Park, Glasgow Crush on staircase 2 50
1961 Huddersfield NK 1
1962 Oldham Barriers collapse 15 *
1963 Arsenal Crushing 100+
1964 Port Vale Fall/Crushing 1 2 *
1964 Sunderland Crushing 80+
1966 Anfield, Liverpool Crushing 200
1967 Leeds Crushing 32 *
1967 Ibrox Park, Glasgow Crush on staircase 8
1968 Dunfermline Barriers collapse 1 49
1971 Ibrox Park, Glasgow Crushing 66 145
1971 Carlisle Barrier collapse 5
1971 Oxford Wall collapse 25
1971 Stoke Crushing 46
1972 Arsenal Crushing 42
1972 Wolverhampton Barrier collapse 80
1975 Lincoln Wall collapse 5
1978 Leyton Orient Barrier/wall collapse 30
1980 Middlesbrough Gate pillar collapsed 2 ?
1981 Hillsborough, Sheffield Crushing 38
1984 Walsall Wall collapsed 20
1985 St Andrews, Birmingham Wall collapse 1 20
1985 Valley Parade, Bradford Fire 56 Hundreds
1987 Easter Road, Edinburgh Crushing 150
1989 Hillsborough, Sheffield Crushing 96 400+
1989 Middlesbrough Crushing 19
1993 Cardiff Arms Park Distress rocket 1 0

# Rugby League match

* Number taken to hospital

 

[Kukev31]

So I was correct with United not having and of their ground closed then. And If you go to Old Trafford now you will see thousands stood for the full 90 minutes every match.

But as I said if every one at Withdean stands infront of their seats, rather than sitting on them how is a crush any more likely?

 

[simon195]

The large majority of stewards are utter wank and have no or very little understanding of how to control a football crowd, FACT.

Bring back Gold Range, least they had brain cells.

remember them at the west ham millwall game ? too scared to show up 4 work...ha ha what cowards... i wouldnt give the stewards at withdean the scrapings off my arse !!!

 

[Storer68]

People are allowed by law to stand in a seating area for a short period of time only if they are able to sit down afterwards. So standing up and then sitting down again is permissable. What is not allowed under the law is PERSISTENT standing (ie standing up for a long time)., And on another note, we would not have got permission for Falmer had we included standing areas.

From the FLA's website
Question
Can standing be reintroduced at Premier and Championship grounds?


Answer
Following the Hillsborough Disaster, the government accepted the recommendation of Lord Justice’s Taylor’s inquiry that grounds in the top two divisions should become all-seated.

The Inquiry’s conclusion that, while “there is no panacea which will achieve total safety and cure all problems of behaviour and crowd control, seating does more to achieve these objectives than any other single measure”, has been proved to be correct.

It is generally accepted that Premiership and Football League grounds are safer, more comfortable and more civilised that they were fifteen or twenty years ago, though the FLA recognises that not all the changes have found favour with all spectators.


The injury statistics that we have collected and published for the past few seasons suggest that a spectator is less likely to be injured at an all-seated ground than at one that retains standing accommodation. We recognise, however, that for a variety of reasons the statistics do not provide a wholly reliable indicator of the relative injury rates in seated and standing accommodation.

While standing accommodation is now undoubtedly much safer than during the 1990s, we remain convinced on the basis of our observations and of anecdotal evidence that standing still presents a greater risk of injury than sitting.
There are, moreover, a significant number of practical reasons against reintroducing standing terraces at our all-seated grounds. The conversion of all or part of a seating deck to standing accommodation would raise all sorts of complicated design and engineering issues relating to the gradient, the row depth, the viewing standards, the dynamic movement of the deck and the dynamics of the crowd.

As a generality, it would require more space (hence a lower capacity) and spectators would have to be further away from the pitch to obtain an adequate view. It could also constrain the size and design of any concourses.


Moreover, standing accommodation may not be used for any international, Champions League or Europa League match. So for example, during the 2006 World Cup all the stadia in Germany were required to be all seated.


The Minister for Sport has stated publicly that the government will not abandon its all-seater policy unless compelling evidence is produced that it is no longer necessary. Although the matter has been reviewed from time to time, he does not consider that such a case has been made. Indeed, no new arguments have been advanced in support of a return to standing for many years. In this context it should be noted that the case for seating does not rest purely on statistics of past injuries.

 

[Storer68]

http://www.flaweb-dev.org.uk/pdfs/finalletter.pdf

http://www.flaweb-dev.org.uk/pdfs/finalannex.pdf

 

[Billy the Fish]

People are allowed by law to stand in a seating area for a short period of time only if they are able to sit down afterwards. So standing up and then sitting down again is permissable. What is not allowed under the law is PERSISTENT standing (ie standing up for a long time)., And on another note, we would not have got permission for Falmer had we included standing areas.

From the FLA's website
Question
Can standing be reintroduced at Premier and Championship grounds?


Answer
Following the Hillsborough Disaster, the government accepted the recommendation of Lord Justice’s Taylor’s inquiry that grounds in the top two divisions should become all-seated.

The Inquiry’s conclusion that, while “there is no panacea which will achieve total safety and cure all problems of behaviour and crowd control, seating does more to achieve these objectives than any other single measure”, has been proved to be correct.

It is generally accepted that Premiership and Football League grounds are safer, more comfortable and more civilised that they were fifteen or twenty years ago, though the FLA recognises that not all the changes have found favour with all spectators.


The injury statistics that we have collected and published for the past few seasons suggest that a spectator is less likely to be injured at an all-seated ground than at one that retains standing accommodation. We recognise, however, that for a variety of reasons the statistics do not provide a wholly reliable indicator of the relative injury rates in seated and standing accommodation.

While standing accommodation is now undoubtedly much safer than during the 1990s, we remain convinced on the basis of our observations and of anecdotal evidence that standing still presents a greater risk of injury than sitting.
There are, moreover, a significant number of practical reasons against reintroducing standing terraces at our all-seated grounds. The conversion of all or part of a seating deck to standing accommodation would raise all sorts of complicated design and engineering issues relating to the gradient, the row depth, the viewing standards, the dynamic movement of the deck and the dynamics of the crowd.

As a generality, it would require more space (hence a lower capacity) and spectators would have to be further away from the pitch to obtain an adequate view. It could also constrain the size and design of any concourses.


Moreover, standing accommodation may not be used for any international, Champions League or Europa League match. So for example, during the 2006 World Cup all the stadia in Germany were required to be all seated.


The Minister for Sport has stated publicly that the government will not abandon its all-seater policy unless compelling evidence is produced that it is no longer necessary. Although the matter has been reviewed from time to time, he does not consider that such a case has been made. Indeed, no new arguments have been advanced in support of a return to standing for many years. In this context it should be noted that the case for seating does not rest purely on statistics of past injuries.

Just because sitting down is marginally safer it doesn't mean that standing at football is in itself a dangerous thing to do. You can quote all of the casualties of the last hundred years, but that doesn't mean that it's not safe to stand up in the modern stadia that we have today.

Also, some of the reasons for keeping all seater staida are political. I don't think any of those reports actually look at the subject objectively

That article conveniently ignores the german safe standing model. I don't think anyone is argueing for a return to the old style terraces, just to be able to stand in an allocated area. No re design of the ground, the same terracing, same capacity just with crash barriers on every row to stop you falling forwards.

 

[SICKASAGULL]

Exactly dougdeep, the club have to employ additional stewards purely to ensure that other supporters can see,whats the point of buying a seat but be unable to see any attacking play once the ball nears the penalty area.
Prices are bound to increase at Falmer even if we are still in Div1 so this unsocial habit must be stopped and tickets available at the new stadium otherwise attendances will be dis-appointing.

 

[Easy 10]

Storer68, terracing at football grounds is perfectly safe if it is properly controlled by the club and the officials.
Thousands of fans still stand on terracing in the lower leagues (I stood at Exeter last week).
Thousands of fans stand at concerts.
Thousands of fans stand at games on the continent, Germany in particular.
If terracing is the potential death trap you seem to think it is, then surely none of this would be allowed ?

Lessons have been learned. Stadiums have been improved. Practices and procedures have been tightened. Fans are treated differently, they are no longer caged up like animals or treated like criminals. I really can't understand how anyone can believe the sole reason for the Hillsborough disaster was terracing - there were a multitude of factors and disastrous decisions which led to how that tragedy played out, terracing was not the factor that caused it at all.

 

[Box of Frogs]

Just because sitting down is marginally safer it doesn't mean that standing at football is in itself a dangerous thing to do. You can quote all of the casualties of the last hundred years, but that doesn't mean that it's not safe to stand up in the modern stadia that we have today.

Also, some of the reasons for keeping all seater staida are political. I don't think any of those reports actually look at the subject objectively

That article conveniently ignores the german safe standing model. I don't think anyone is argueing for a return to the old style terraces, just to be able to stand in an allocated area. No re design of the ground, the same terracing, same capacity just with crash barriers on every row to stop you falling forwards.

You have been to Withdean, haven't you?

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Exactly dougdeep, the club have to employ additional stewards purely to ensure that other supporters can see,whats the point of buying a seat but be unable to see any attacking play once the ball nears the penalty area.
Prices are bound to increase at Falmer even if we are still in Div1 so this unsocial habit must be stopped and tickets available at the new stadium otherwise attendances will be dis-appointing.

Maybe everybody should just stop going til Falmer. Hard to envisage any other situation in one's so-called-life where you shell out 25 notes for an evenings entertainment thats worth no more than fifteen and a bloke in an orange donkey jacket and ill-fitting haircut can order you to sit in a puddle of icy water for a couple of hours.

 

[Billy the Fish]

You have been to Withdean, haven't you?

A great example. I've stood up for an entire game at Withdean, we've scored and I've gone mental and jumped around, but I've never once even come close to hurting myself or another person. If that's the case in a dump like Withdean imagine what it's like in a proper ground

 

[Brovion]

People are allowed by law to stand in a seating area for a short period of time only if they are able to sit down afterwards. So standing up and then sitting down again is permissable. What is not allowed under the law is PERSISTENT standing (ie standing up for a long time)., And on another note, we would not have got permission for Falmer had we included standing areas.

.

Legally that's not true. I asked this question before, because if you're allowed to stand 'occassionally' - who decides when you can stand and when you must sit? And also who decides how long is a 'short period of time'? The answer is obviously the stewards as they're the people who are trying to implement the rules. That is obviously an absurd situation as such a vaguely-worded law would be open to individual interpretation by the individual stewards. Some might say that's exactly what happens now but actually the law is far clearer and plainer, it states that people must be seated AT ALL TIMES when the game is in progress. And yes, the game is deemed to be 'in progress' when a goal is scored (as the clock is running), therefore anyone who stands up to cheer a goal is breaking the law!

And you're not convincing anyone with your litany of crowd disasters (which also includes Valley Parade!) As has been pointed out to you time and time again there are more factors involved than the simple existence of terracing - and people have died in theatre and cinema disasters too. Yes I accept that in certain circumstances having people sitting down in nice neat rows is probably marginally safer than having them milling randomly around on a terrace, but to imply that the return of terraces would suddenly result in a new series of Hillsboroughs is, well, a crock of shit to put it kindly.

PS - I notice your Man U story was in 2001! Couldn't you find any later examples?

 

[les dynam]

i would be amazed if terracing isn't re-introduced in a few years in the UK. the fans want it and i think most clubs understand the benefits of having a section of home fans who stand on a terrace.

one reason is safety and stewarding. if the people who want to stand can stand on a terrace, you instantly remove these petty rows about standing/sitting with the stewards everywhere else on the ground. those who like to sit...go in the stands, and those who like to stand... go on the terrace (like it used to be)

the idea that modern terracing is not safe is laughable. MOST grounds in germany have HUGE terraced kops - the dortmund home end holds something like 44,000 alone, and the away end is divided into terracing and seated area. they are safe, the fans love them, and the club can charge a bit less for tickets which always goes down well.

i only hope that the north end at falmer can be converted to terracing because i'm sure in a few years we'll legally be able to do that.

 

[Hatterlovesbrighton]

i would be amazed if terracing isn't re-introduced in a few years in the UK. the fans want it and i think most clubs understand the benefits of having a section of home fans who stand on a terrace.

one reason is safety and stewarding. if the people who want to stand can stand on a terrace, you instantly remove these petty rows about standing/sitting with the stewards everywhere else on the ground. those who like to sit...go in the stands, and those who like to stand... go on the terrace (like it used to be)

the idea that modern terracing is not safe is laughable. MOST grounds in germany have HUGE terraced kops - the dortmund home end holds something like 44,000 alone, and the away end is divided into terracing and seated area. they are safe, the fans love them, and the club can charge a bit less for tickets which always goes down well.

i only hope that the north end at falmer can be converted to terracing because i'm sure in a few years we'll legally be able to do that.

I would be amazed if it did. No Government would vote for that, they would be accussed of voting for a return to hooliganism.

Also, the clubs wouldn't want it. Football in the 80;s and early 90's had a bad reputation. When I used to go to football matches in that time when i was 13 or 14 my mum was worried about me going.

Football hasn't got that sort of bad reputation any more which has made it into the thing it is today (like it or loathe it) and I can't see any of the authotrities wanting it back.

 

[Easy 10]

Sadly Hatters is spot-on. NO government is going to pass legislation to re-introduce terracing, because now its here, fans can be monitored and controlled far easier, and (from the clubs point of view), they can be charged more, pricing out some of the more "unsavoury" elements and making football stadiums more expensive, corporate and "family-friendly".

It suits this nanny-state government down to the ground. It'll never go back.

 

[Hatterlovesbrighton]

I don't think we can blame the Government too much, well no more than normal. Football attendances are higher now than they were in the 80s. Why would the football authorities want to change anything back to how it was and risk that.

 

[Easy 10]

I agree, there's no real appetite from the football authorities (or the clubs generally) to re-introduce terracing, and certainly not the government. Take a straw poll amongst football fans though, and I reckon you'd probably get a large majority in favour of an introduction of safe, controlled terraces. But since when has anyone bothered listening to the fans ?

 

[Jamon Jamon]

it's a funny old world though, I can 'legally' stand in the MRE at Gigg Lane if i'm watching FC United play but the following week when Bury are at home I'd have to sit down. at present FC's average is higher than Bury's. What make Unibond league football safer to watch?

 

[les dynam]

it's a funny old world though, I can 'legally' stand in the MRE at Gigg Lane if i'm watching FC United play but the following week when Bury are at home I'd have to sit down. at present FC's average is higher than Bury's. What make Unibond league football safer to watch?

there is still terracing at several league clubs, none of which have had any safety problems since the taylor report suggested all-seaters. we get to stand on some it - bristol rovers and brentford for example.

football fans have more power than some of us know - a properly organised campaign to highlight the issue involving clubs from all 4 leagues would be listened to.

one other point on this subject, i'm pretty sure the proposed new spurs stadium plan mentioned that one end would be built with future conversion to terracing in mind.