Thanks for that insight. Bit too drunk too form an answer to it but in the main you are correct. I just can't stand the fact that many cultures have been destroyed through imperialism. That's what I find sad. Stupid was a pretty gross overstament but it wasn't all good.
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Statue of disabled pregnant woman in Trafalgar Square...
- Thread starter Pavilionaire
- Start date
HampshireSeagulls
Moulding Generation Z
ChapmansThe Saviour said:
It definitely wasn't all good, I don't deny that we pulled some pretty shitty strokes in order to spread our flags over the globe. It's the way the blinkers come on that pisses me off. I can almost hear the frantic keystrokes cutting-and-pasting their sixth-form agoniste responses as I sit here, further destroying and denigrating our history with the wonderful benefit of hindsight and an "on-message" brainwashing.
London Calling
New member
HampshireSeagulls said:
But at least the English got the dumb fuckers from Ireland and Scotland to do most of the fighting for them. Oppressed people? They loved killing people who were more "cultured" than they were.
LC
Meade's_Ball said:
I'm sorry, but I cannot agree with this either. In a modern context you can attack our history for all sorts of crimes - and we would be guilty of many. The same can be said of the Americans who undoubtedly leave themselves open to the criticism of flouting both freedom and democracy in recent times. However, our langauge and our shared history can't be separated from the evolution of freedom and democracy across the globe. History WILL judge us kindly for many, many things.
It's hard to know where to start in disproving the above statement. What about the Enlightenment? What about a hundred years of liberal political thought? What about the American Declaration of Independence and their constitution and bill of rights - arguably the world's finest enshrinement of freedom and democracy? What about WW2!? What about human rights? Equality? England and the English lanaguage have been at the centre of the development of all of the above with some European help of course
Taking things out of context you can knock us for all of the above. But in reality we have defined what freedom and democracy is today.
Robot Chicken
Seriously?
Mods...NSC Gold. 
Tom Bombadil
Well-known member
Yorkie said:
How exactly do you define that? The Arabs may have a long history of slavery but for sheer numbers they don't come close to the western volumes of the 17-19th centuries.
Richard Whiteley
New member
- Sep 24, 2003
- 585
HampshireSeagulls said:
So it was about wealth and power. I'd say that Imperialism was a BAD thing then wouldn't you? I'd say your the one parrotting. Dressing the subjugation of nations up in economics, and pulling out the same old dull PC bollocks.
By talking about our nation's history of oppression DOES NOT mean you ignore opression inflicted by other countries. Personally I think it would be a bit weird to meet a Briton banging on about the Spanish Empire for example. You talk about what you know best usually, and guess what, most of us are from Britain. Stands to reason you might have a greater interest in your own country's history. By saying people are ignoring other countries history is just putting words into their mouths. It's wishful thinking on your part because it suits your argument.
The only 'stupidity' I can see is trying to rewrite history to make oneself feel a bit more comfortable and to cling on to that whiter than white, always on the right side plucky Brits image.
If you don't like it, don't throw your toys out of the pram and come out with all the usual names....PC, self loathing..blahfuckingblah.
On a side note, I defy any right leaning NSC poster to argue about any contentious political issue without using the expression PC. I don't believe it can be done.
HampshireSeagulls
Moulding Generation Z
Richard Whiteley said:
Here we go again. You say that people have a greater interest in our own country's history, yet on this board people frequently, and normally at length, pontificate or "bang on" about the US. We are not in the US, so why should we be passing judgement on them? If we then agree that every other country is an open target, maybe we should start looking into the caste system, the African race wars - if we can pass judgement on the US, then Africa is not above a quick NSC debate, surely?
Imperialism may be about wealth and power, but you have also selected words to quote - I also pointed out expansion of an education system, commerce, technology - but you didn't want to use those words from previous postings because they don't fit your argumen. Neither did you want to challenge DJ Leon's statement -why was that? He makes them same points that I do (more eloquently, obviously!)
The PC argument is nice and easy, but only because over the years it has set itself up as a target. You don't have to be right leaning (I hope that wasn't you trying to label me or put words in my mouth.....!) to disagree with events and actions that have been carried out by people who are devoted to a path of equal opportunties in blind ignorance of common sense.
Anyway, the statue is pretty poor, the replacement is worse. If people are truly sick and tired of championing all these state-approved warriors, why did so many turn out to cheer the recreation of Nelson's funeral procession? Why did so many turn out for Trafalgar 200, and why are so many booked in for the October segment of T200?
London Calling
New member
HampshireSeagulls said:
And why was the Nelson memorial passing (Yesterday) on the Thames so CRAP?
HampshireSeagulls
Moulding Generation Z
London Calling said:
Why was it crap? How could it have been better?
There's a few thousand who would argue with you!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4250654.stm
London Irish
Well-known member
DJ Leon said:
Where can you start with self-delusion like this?
When did empire get turned around in your mind to beome "democracy"?
And stuff like the American Declaration of Indepedence mainly came from French ideas but yes, some of is owed to guys like Tom Paine, who usually had to be looking over his shoulder waiting to be arrested by the democracy-loving George III
London Irish
Well-known member
HampshireSeagulls said:
I don't think so.At least there is a good measure of blunt honesty in your posts, which although I hardly ever agree with them, is at least worthy of respect.
London Irish
Well-known member
HampshireSeagulls said:
For the logical reason that we are locked into a long-term military and political alliance with them, which goes on regardless of who wins General Elections in Britain. The blunt fact is that British foreign and defence policy is decided in the White House, so in many ways it is more sensible that we discuss American politics rather than the sideshow that is British politics.
London Irish
Well-known member
Oh.....and whatever you do mate, don't buy the Argus today, you'll have a heart attack - not only have they got Alison Lapper on their front page, but they've also started a big campaign to free the Gitmo prisoner from Saltdean, Omar Deghayes
Dave the OAP
Well-known member
London Calling
New member
Nelson funeral.
Not just my opionion but everyone who was with me, around 100 or so in our office, who watched the proceedings as it passed our building on towards the Tower Bridge.
This 100 had started at around 200 but as the procession proceeded it seemed unco-ordinated, an odd historic boat mixing with modern tourist cruisers, paddling boats, barges.
It was hard to tell where it started, Nelson boat slipped by us!
It was completed by a bedraggle set of boats chased up in the rear by two rowers. A huge disapointment.
A poor display!
Crap.
LC
Not just my opionion but everyone who was with me, around 100 or so in our office, who watched the proceedings as it passed our building on towards the Tower Bridge.
This 100 had started at around 200 but as the procession proceeded it seemed unco-ordinated, an odd historic boat mixing with modern tourist cruisers, paddling boats, barges.
It was hard to tell where it started, Nelson boat slipped by us!
It was completed by a bedraggle set of boats chased up in the rear by two rowers. A huge disapointment.
A poor display!
Crap.
LC
London Irish said:Where can you start with self-delusion like this?
When did empire get turned around in your mind to beome "democracy"?
And stuff like the American Declaration of Indepedence mainly came from French ideas but yes, some of is owed to guys like Tom Paine, who usually had to be looking over his shoulder waiting to be arrested by the democracy-loving George III
Where do you start? Well give producing a coherant argument a try.
When did empire get turned around in my mind to become democracy? Who said it did? Did I mention the empire? No, I didn't. Did I say that our journey to democracy happened whilst we had an empire? Again, no. So, what exactly are you saying?
You're right, French ideas did have a lot to do with the US DoI. Just as I said. And did I say that England under George III would be a beacon of freedom and democracy by today's terms. No, I didn't.
So your missive was pretty much written without any consideration of my post. History really has to be judged in context. Your POV seems to ignore this and judge everything and everybody by modern definitions. Maybe you should write a history book. The world should be told what utter right-wing zealots and bigots everybody who died before 1960 was.
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