Star Wars: The Force Awakens - with Spoilers - discussion thread

[Munkfish]

I really enjoyed the film, But no doubt these points have been discussed elsewere but the three things which bugged me were.

1. Rey being able to use the force so well, without the training that others have gone through. I guess that lead to helping people draw to the conclusion Luke may be her father.
2. Kylo Ren being shown to be as weak, He started out looking like a boss, when he froze the blaster shot in mid air, he looked like a beast but as the movie went on he come across weaker and weaker. In my mind you dont have the bad guy almost lose to two newbies, the odds needed to be stacked against him more to make him look stronger. (I guess the constant hype about the strengh of Chewies gun was meant to help us believe Kylo Ren should be seen as a bad ass as he managed to fight them.
3. R2-D2 waking up after 20/30 years of sleep, just at the right time, no real reasoning behind it, other than the presence of Rey I guess?
4. How did they manage to retrieve Darth Vaders Mask and Lukes LightSaber. Surely both were lost in space when the Death Star was blown up?

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

I thought there was a good bit of humour running through the film. Poe at the end saying 'right, we deactivate this, bomb that, lets go' actually bought a laugh out loud moment from me - in a good way I might add, a nod at the complexity of the prequels. I thought that mind control scene was intended to be funny hence the dialogue.

The whole Star Wars premise is built upon the prophecy of a person bringing balance to the force. Was it Anakin, Luke or now Rey? If it is Rey then you would expect her to have extraordinary abilities if she is to indeed fulfil that prophecy in the course of the next two films.

What were you expecting, a Kubrick-esque sci-fi intellectual masterpiece?

I was expecting a flawed character, one who takes a beating on their way to realising their potential. Not some kid who grew up in a bleak wasteland that's instantly one of the best pilots/mechanics in the galaxy and can all of a sudden control the force and defeat someone who has already had training with the force.

There was humour, all delivered perfectly by the two characters that don't even speak an understandable language. Hats off to Chewy and the Droid.

The trouble is we're expected to take the whole being able to use and control the force 10 minutes after the character hears its real seriously.

I get why kids can be sucked in by the bells and whistles, but how an adult can't see through the massive plot holes boggles the mind.

 

[Marshy]

Its clear to me Kylo Ren is a plant in the dark side by Luke to finish them off once and for all ;-)

I am right on this, the force is strong with me.

 

[Triggaaar]

Finally saw it. Walked away laughing at how big a Mary Sue they have made Rey.

Goes from knowing nothing about the force to being able to use it and defeat a trained Jedi in 20 minutes.

Firstly, I'm not suggesting you're wrong to have issues with it, I'm just saying how I took these things...

At least 3 things about Rey's fight with Kylo Ren:
Kylo Ren isn't a Jedi (or Sith). His training is also incomplete.
He's also seriously injured. He took a direct hit from Chewie's bowcaster, which is powerful enough to kill 2 stormtroopers just by hitting near them.
Kylo Ren is not trying to defeat Rey. He knows (thinks he knows) he can beat her and he's toying with her, and telling her to join him.
It's only at the end where she's got a real feeling for it and is beating the injured Kylo Ren.

Goes from being a junker to be being able to fly the millennium falcon like one of the best pilots in the galaxy. Simply by sayin "i'm a pilot".

Like Luke went from being a farm boy to being the best X WIng pilot by simply saying 'I used to bullseye wamp rats'.

Darth Vader tries and fails to shoot Luke in his X-Wing, and Darth says the immortal 'The force is strong with this one'. That's after Luke has had about 10 seconds of Force training on the Falcon. Luke's weakness was that he didn't believe. Rey doesn't seem to have that problem. She's seen what it can do, she believes it, and she knows she can do it too.

Took three movies for Luke to get the Force.

He shot the Death Star after switching off his computer in the first movie. He summoned his light sabre at the beginning of Empire, despite having no training.

Got the shit kicked out of him and rescued plenty of times in those movie.

By whom? A fully trained Vader was a different prospect to the injured trainee Kylo Ren.

Rey is a rubbish character

Well I love her and I want to marry her.

And yes, people bagged the shit out of Annakin too for being a rubbish character in the movies.

Yeah, he was rubbish though.

 

[Jam The Man]

4. How did they manage to retrieve Darth Vaders Mask and Lukes LightSaber. Surely both were lost in space when the Death Star was blown up?

Vader's mask was still on him when Luke burnt him on the pyre on Endor at the end of ROTJ
The lightsabre was the one in Luke's hand on Bespin, so I guess it's been tumbling through whatever atmosphere is present there.

 

[Dave the OAP]

is that him offa Third Rock from the Sun? You know the cop

 

[Triggaaar]

Has anyone seen it in 4DX at Crawley yet?

Thinking about going next week.

Failing that, IMAX at Crawley.

Note. It'll be my second viewing.

I'd like to hear how you get on. I went for my second viewing at the Odeon screen 1, and it was a bit of a disaster. It had ****ing subtitles! WTF!

I want to see it on the biggest screen in Sussex, that's not 3D. Please let me know how you get on at Crawley.

 

[Bold Seagull]

I really enjoyed the film, But no doubt these points have been discussed elsewere but the three things which bugged me were.

1. Rey being able to use the force so well, without the training that others have gone through. I guess that lead to helping people draw to the conclusion Luke may be her father.
2. Kylo Ren being shown to be as weak, He started out looking like a boss, when he froze the blaster shot in mid air, he looked like a beast but as the movie went on he come across weaker and weaker. In my mind you dont have the bad guy almost lose to two newbies, the odds needed to be stacked against him more to make him look stronger. (I guess the constant hype about the strengh of Chewies gun was meant to help us believe Kylo Ren should be seen as a bad ass as he managed to fight them.
3. R2-D2 waking up after 20/30 years of sleep, just at the right time, no real reasoning behind it, other than the presence of Rey I guess?
4. How did they manage to retrieve Darth Vaders Mask and Lukes LightSaber. Surely both were lost in space when the Death Star was blown up?

 

[StonehamPark]

Firstly, I'm not suggesting you're wrong to have issues with it, I'm just saying how I took these things...

At least 3 things about Rey's fight with Kyloe Ren:
Kylo Ren isn't a Jedi (or Sith). His training is also incomplete.
He's also seriously injured. He took a direct hit from Chewie's bowcaster, which is powerful enough to kill 2 stormtroopers just by hitting near them.
Kylo Ren is not trying to defeat Rey. He knows (thinks he knows) he can beat her and he's toying with her, and telling her to join him.
It's only at the end where she's got a real feeling for it and is beating the injured Kylo Ren.

Like Luke went from being a farm boy to being the best X WIng pilot by simply saying 'I used to bullseye wamp rate'.

Darth Vader tries and fails to shoot Luke in his X-Wing, and Darth says the immortal 'The force is strong with this one'. That's after Luke has had about 10 seconds of Force training on the Falcon. Luke's weakness was that he didn't believe. Rey doesn't seem to have that problem. She's seen what it can do, she believes it, and she knows she can do it too.

He shot the Death Star after switching of his computer in the first movie. He summoned his light sabre at the beginning of Empire, despite having no training.
By whom? A fully trained Vader was a different prospect to the injured trainee Kylo Ren.

Well I love her and I want to marry her.

Yeah, he was rubbish though.

Great post.

I'd like to hear how you get on. I went for my second viewing at the Odeon screen 1, and it was a bit of a disaster. It had ****ing subtitles! WTF!

I want to see it on the biggest screen in Sussex, that's not 3D. Please let me know how you get on at Crawley.

Yep I'll post a quick review in here next Weds, although reading this thread makes me want to go sooner, so we'll see.
Would you not consider 3D IMAX?

I've avoided The Odeon for years, hate that place!

 

[Triggaaar]

I really enjoyed the film, But no doubt these points have been discussed elsewere but the three things which bugged me were.

1. Rey being able to use the force so well, without the training that others have gone through.

It's the same in every episode. Anakin was stronger with the force than those that had training. Even in the Phantom Menace he was able to win a pod race against creatures that have far better reactions, because he had the force without knowing it. And then despite his late start to training, he was a more powerful Jedi than anyone his age. And Luke was able to defeat Vader with just a few years of training. And Luke used the force pretty well in the first two movies. The force is clearly very strong in Rey.

2. Kylo Ren being shown to be as weak, He started out looking like a boss, when he froze the blaster shot in mid air, he looked like a beast but as the movie went on he come across weaker and weaker. In my mind you dont have the bad guy almost lose to two newbies

He didn't almost lose to Finn, he was toying with Finn. He was also in control against Rey, but he wasn't wanting to kill her, he was wanting to take her to Snoke. He eventually lost, but he was badly injured.

(I guess the constant hype about the strengh of Chewies gun was meant to help us believe Kylo Ren should be seen as a bad ass as he managed to fight them.

I guess.

3. R2-D2 waking up after 20/30 years of sleep, just at the right time, no real reasoning behind it, other than the presence of Rey I guess?

The only reason he was in low power mode was to wait until either Rey turned up, or the missing part of the map turned up. That was his sole mission. They turned up and he powered up.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

I really enjoyed the film, But no doubt these points have been discussed elsewere but the three things which bugged me were.

1. Rey being able to use the force so well, without the training that others have gone through. I guess that lead to helping people draw to the conclusion Luke may be her father.

I see this as being a mystery yet to be resolved, rather than a problem with the movie. The only problem is it does provide ammunition for those who see her as a Mary Sue character. Clearly, she is VERY strong with the force, as her intuitive ability to develop skills has shown. Is she a Skywalker, is she perhaps a Kenobi?

2. Kylo Ren being shown to be as weak, He started out looking like a boss, when he froze the blaster shot in mid air, he looked like a beast but as the movie went on he come across weaker and weaker. In my mind you dont have the bad guy almost lose to two newbies, the odds needed to be stacked against him more to make him look stronger. (I guess the constant hype about the strengh of Chewies gun was meant to help us believe Kylo Ren should be seen as a bad ass as he managed to fight them.

I personally love the fact that Kylo Ren subverts our expectations in terms of his strength and personality. Everything in the trailers and the first 15 minutes portray him as a straight copy of Vader, confident, strong in the force etc. However, we discover that he's actually just a kid, who sooo wants to be Vader it hurts. He's powerful in the force, but emotionally he's unstable, conflicted and prone to outbursts of petulance. They managed to develop a complex, layered character in this movie, one you feel for at times; and far more fleshed out than Anakin was over the 3 prequels.

I terms of his 'defeat' - remember he was badly injured when Chewie shot him. There would be no other way the untrained Finn would have lasted more than a couple of seconds against him otherwise - that and the fact that Kylo spent a lot of time taunting him, rather than killing him immediately.

As an aside, I've not read it, but the novelization includes a line that says that after killing Han, Kylo actually feels WEAKER in the force than before, not the way Snoke promised.

3. R2-D2 waking up after 20/30 years of sleep, just at the right time, no real reasoning behind it, other than the presence of Rey I guess?

It has been suggested that it's the prompting from BB8 earlier that wakes R2, but that seems far too convenient for me.

4. How did they manage to retrieve Darth Vaders Mask and Lukes LightSaber. Surely both were lost in space when the Death Star was blown up?

The Original opening was meant to focus on the lightsaber floating in space, and a ship approaching it. So, we can assume that the lightsaber could easily have been picked up by SOMEONE at some time... on the assumption that it didn't fall into Bespin.

As far as Vader's mask is concerned, the working assumption has to be that Kylo retrieved it from Endor's forest moon at some point. Apparently, also, the ashes Kylo puts his mask down into at one point are Vader's ashes, presumably retrieved at the same time.

 

[Munkfish]

What am I missing?

 

[Bladders]

What am I missing?

Vaders mask was last seen burning on Endor

Luke's light sabre last seen falling with his hand at Cloud City on Bespin

 

[8ace]

R2 was probably just pretending to be asleep so people wouldn't annoy him.

 

[Triggaaar]

Great post.

Thank you I think that might be my first 'great post', and it only took slightly over 20,000 attempts.

Would you not consider 3D IMAX?

I want to see it at a proper IMAX (2D 70mm etc), but I think the UK only has one, in Waterloo. Crawley's biggest screen sounds tempting, but I don't really want to see it in 3D. F'ing big 2D would be nice. But I could try 3D if that's the only option.

 

[Munkfish]

I see this as being a mystery yet to be resolved, rather than a problem with the movie. The only problem is it does provide ammunition for those who see her as a Mary Sue character. Clearly, she is VERY strong with the force, as her intuitive ability to develop skills has shown. Is she a Skywalker, is she perhaps a Kenobi?




I personally love the fact that Kylo Ren subverts our expectations in terms of his strength and personality. Everything in the trailers and the first 15 minutes portray him as a straight copy of Vader, confident, strong in the force etc. However, we discover that he's actually just a kid, who sooo wants to be Vader it hurts. He's powerful in the force, but emotionally he's unstable, conflicted and prone to outbursts of petulance. They managed to develop a complex, layered character in this movie, one you feel for at times; and far more fleshed out than Anakin was over the 3 prequels.

I terms of his 'defeat' - remember he was badly injured when Chewie shot him. There would be no other way the untrained Finn would have lasted more than a couple of seconds against him otherwise - that and the fact that Kylo spent a lot of time taunting him, rather than killing him immediately.

As an aside, I've not read it, but the novelization includes a line that says that after killing Han, Kylo actually feels WEAKER in the force than before, not the way Snoke promised.



It has been suggested that it's the prompting from BB8 earlier that wakes R2, but that seems far too convenient for me.



The Original opening was meant to focus on the lightsaber floating in space, and a ship approaching it. So, we can assume that the lightsaber could easily have been picked up by SOMEONE at some time... on the assumption that it didn't fall into Bespin.

As far as Vader's mask is concerned, the working assumption has to be that Kylo retrieved it from Endor's forest moon at some point. Apparently, also, the ashes Kylo puts his mask down into at one point are Vader's ashes, presumably retrieved at the same time.

Point 1. Agreed, this will be resolved in the second and third movies, so its not too much of an issue for me, however she was made to look pretty strong pretty quickly.

Point 2. Yes I think they have done a good job in layering the character, but I like my bad guys to be seen as strong, whats the point of the bad guy being an average Joe its not really going to take a lot for him to be beaten next time round. Obviously he is still in training, but he has had enough to stop a blaster in mid flight, but not enough to over come Rey and Finn, I'm not so sure. He is just an angry little Emo kid though, no doubt he has posters of my bloody Valentine on the wall and other such bands on the wall of his spaceship.

Point 3. I think this could have easily been fixed with BB8 trying to fix him the whole time from when they met.

Good film though, the second and third will depend on the success of this film in the future, it needs to be judged as a complete trilodgy but I think overall the film did well to kick things off again.

2 further points. What happened to Lukes hand, previously he had a robotic arm however it looked normal as before with a skin, has he lost his hand again? and what was the significance of C3P0's red arm which was later fixed. I feel bits of the story are missed out in edits, not that you need it all, its quite nice to speculate etc.

 

[Munkfish]

Vaders mask was last seen burning on Endor

Luke's light sabre last seen falling with his hand at Cloud City on Bespin

Thanks.

 

[Triggaaar]

R2 was probably just pretending to be asleep so people wouldn't annoy him.

We've all done it

 

[Easy 10]

I get why kids can be sucked in by the bells and whistles, but how an adult can't see through the massive plot holes boggles the mind.

I doubt there's been a sci-fi film ever made that doesn't have a few plot-holes, or the requirement of a few leaps of faith.

Its not Citizen Kane, its Star Wars. Just suspend your disbelief for a couple of hours, stop looking for logic in a film about aliens and spaceships, and you'll get a lot more out of it.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

I doubt there's been a sci-fi film ever made that doesn't have a few plot-holes, or the requirement of a few leaps of faith.

Its not Citizen Kane, its Star Wars. Just suspend your disbelief for a couple of hours, stop looking for logic in a film about aliens and spaceships, and you'll get a lot more out of it.

I'd love to know what [MENTION=4800]Tyrone Biggums[/MENTION] thought of the Prequels if he disliked THIS one