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Southern Rail STRIKE details



Simster

"the man's an arse"
Jul 7, 2003
54,952
Surrey
after noting that the franchise is cripped by industrial action, it once again concludes the entire issue rest on an agenda derived from one quote by Peter Wilkinson. you could call that balanced, i say it was a waste of reading that didnt really cover the issues at all.

Firstly Southern is not actually a franchise (unlike the rest of the rail network). Secondly, the issue of industrial action is debatable. The truth is, Southern are essentially being subcontracted out by the government and as such are being told to implement new processes on their behalf. In many cases, Southern don't get much of a choice. But let's be clear about this, managing your industrial relations is part of the business they are in, and they are doing a proper shithouse job of it. If they are "crippled" by industrial action, then that is simply a sign that their industrial relations are feeble, especially given the unions for Southern employees are no more militant than anywhere else in the country. The shortage of staff and consequent cancellation of hundreds of trains are an absolute disgrace - if they are going to conduct a war on the unions, they should have thought about staff numbers BEFORE doing so, not wage their war and throw their hands up at "union intransigence" when it all, predictably, goes wrong. It is crass incompetence that they hadn't put measures in place to deal with this.

I despair at blue-rinse Tories like you, happy to give big business the benefit of the doubt at the expense of the people on the ground who are clearly NO DIFFERENT from other train staff elsewhere in the country. Southern and their parent firm are a total shambles and it is beyond inexcusable.
 




Aug 11, 2003
2,734
The Open Market
after noting that the franchise is cripped by industrial action, it once again concludes the entire issue rest on an agenda derived from one quote by Peter Wilkinson. you could call that balanced, i say it was a waste of reading that didnt really cover the issues at all.

And these issues are?
 


beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
36,015
What are they then ?

the article didnt cover them. theres been far more insightful analysis of the different issue here.
 


Simster

"the man's an arse"
Jul 7, 2003
54,952
Surrey
the article didnt cover them. theres been far more insightful analysis of the different issue here.
Yes you've already said that the article didn't cover them and are happy to rubbish the article as a consequence. So seeing as you are prepared to rubbish what most of us would consider is a reasonable article, you tell us what sort of issues should have been included but weren't...
 


Bozza

You can change this
Helpful Moderator
Jul 4, 2003
57,289
Back in Sussex
Isn't it the case that:

a) Southern ran an OK-ish service, all in all, prior to the discussion about DOO?
b) Staffing levels at Southern were low and relied upon overtime etc to fulfil timetabled services, but this also seems to an industry-wide phenomenon with other TOCs?
c) It was only after the DOO proposals and the dispute around that proposal that Southern services began to seriously deteriorate as a result of "illness" and/or staff being unprepared to work anything beyond core hours?
 




DFL JCL

Well-known member
Jan 8, 2016
814
Isn't it the case that:

a) Southern ran an OK-ish service, all in all, prior to the discussion about DOO?
b) Staffing levels at Southern were low and relied upon overtime etc to fulfil timetabled services, but this also seems to an industry-wide phenomenon with other TOCs?
c) It was only after the DOO proposals and the dispute around that proposal that Southern services began to seriously deteriorate as a result of "illness" and/or staff being unprepared to work anything beyond core hours?

I think they are interesting points you have raised, however i see it slightly differently

a) I would argue that the service wasn't OKish.. the london bridge situation and general low level of staffing constitutes a poor service. The general level of train cancellation prior to the industrial action was poor. I have spent more time filling out delay repay form than i would wish both during and prior to the industrial action
b) I agree they have poor staffing levels, and seem to rely on staff doing overtime to deliver some semblance of a service.
c) I don't agree with your comment C. The level of additional illness is completely disproportionate to the number of trains they have cancelled. This would seem to me that they are using the industrial action as an excuse.

I would suggest that it is more a case of them inheriting a bad situation, that they had entirely under estimated during the transition from the previous franchise. And they have failed to address this during the years that they have run the franchise.
 


Ernest

Stupid IDIOT
Nov 8, 2003
42,748
LOONEY BIN
I would suggest that it is more a case of them inheriting a bad situation, that they had entirely under estimated during the transition from the previous franchise. And they have failed to address this during the years that they have run the franchise.

The only problem with that is Govia/Go Ahead have had the Southern franchise since 2002 and it doesn't take 14 years to make sure you have enough staff to run a timetable without relying on goodwill from them to do so
 


Simster

"the man's an arse"
Jul 7, 2003
54,952
Surrey
Isn't it the case that:

a) Southern ran an OK-ish service, all in all, prior to the discussion about DOO?
b) Staffing levels at Southern were low and relied upon overtime etc to fulfil timetabled services, but this also seems to an industry-wide phenomenon with other TOCs?
c) It was only after the DOO proposals and the dispute around that proposal that Southern services began to seriously deteriorate as a result of "illness" and/or staff being unprepared to work anything beyond core hours?

a) Sort of. It's never really been very good though, it's just that the past year or so have been an absolute disgrace.
b) Possibly, but what sort of business runs by relying on overtime to fill in the gaps? I have no idea how Southern stack up compared to TOCs. Regardless, if you are pushing through controversial stuff, it would quite clearly have been prudent to ensure they weren't at the mercy of a disaffected workforce.
c) No, it began to seriously deteriorate because Southern refused to allow union members to make up their loss of pay from striking by allowing them to work overtime. It doesn't matter to them or the government that the ones paying the price for this are actually the commuters. I'm sure the "work to rule" policy and above average sickness levels have poured petrol on this situation though.
 






beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
36,015
The only problem with that is Govia/Go Ahead have had the Southern franchise since 2002 and it doesn't take 14 years to make sure you have enough staff to run a timetable without relying on goodwill from them to do so

isn't standard practice across the industry, relying on overtime to cover holidays, sickness and most significantly delays? im sure you said as much ealier, or someone else did. its not unique to rail either, many industries and businesses do it, rather than have a pool of standby staff.

and i note delays, because it seems pretty obvious once you have a overtime ban in place, the little incidents bugger up the shifts. if the guard cant complete a service within their shift, it gets cancelled. though didnt someone say the overtime restrictions had been lifted by Southern?
 


Gazwag

5 millionth post poster
Mar 4, 2004
30,730
Bexhill-on-Sea
Police called to overcrowded Southern train after punches thrown,

Given the uncomfortable conditions it was bound to happen

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/14628295.Police_called_as_tempers_flare_and_punches_thrown_on_packed_train_service/

It's only going to get worse. A friend of mine was forced to go via Brighton to try and get back to bexhill from east croyden mid afternoon after picking up her 1 year old grandson. More than once she was pushed out of the way on Brighton station platform trying to get on the bexhill train and wasn't able to board it. After the thing happened an hour later she had to pay for a taxi home.
 




Tom Hark Preston Park

Will Post For Cash
Jul 6, 2003
72,324
after noting that the franchise is cripped by industrial action, it once again concludes the entire issue rest on an agenda derived from one quote by Peter Wilkinson.

For anyone that missed the Wilkinson quote in question:

But to strip trains of conductors requires the crushing of one of the last holdouts of organised labour. That’s not my extrapolation – it comes from DfT director Pete Wilkinson, who a few months ago told a public meeting, “We have got to break them [union members]. They have all borrowed money to buy cars and got credit cards. They can’t afford to spend too long on strike and I will push them into that place.”

Clevor Trevor seemed to assume he could keep the issue local. Tough titties for him that its now (finally!) become a national issue. Daft Bint GTR apologist Claire Perry was first to fall on her sword for going WAY out on a bough on the wrong side of the argument. She won't be the last. Wilkinson OUT! :wave:
 
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studio150

Well-known member
Jul 30, 2011
30,227
On the Border
It's only going to get worse. A friend of mine was forced to go via Brighton to try and get back to bexhill from east croyden mid afternoon after picking up her 1 year old grandson. More than once she was pushed out of the way on Brighton station platform trying to get on the bexhill train and wasn't able to board it. After the thing happened an hour later she had to pay for a taxi home.

That's terrible, as I would have thought that those with very young children should have been given priority, but no doubt the heat and lack of trains does strange things to travellers
 


Ernest

Stupid IDIOT
Nov 8, 2003
42,748
LOONEY BIN
isn't standard practice across the industry, relying on overtime to cover holidays, sickness and most significantly delays? im sure you said as much ealier, or someone else did. its not unique to rail either, many industries and businesses do it, rather than have a pool of standby staff.

and i note delays, because it seems pretty obvious once you have a overtime ban in place, the little incidents bugger up the shifts. if the guard cant complete a service within their shift, it gets cancelled. though didnt someone say the overtime restrictions had been lifted by Southern?

If you rely on goodwill by staff to cover up your shortages then it seems to be a stupid thing to engineer a dispute
 










Tom Hark Preston Park

Will Post For Cash
Jul 6, 2003
72,324
Wonder which it'll be tonight: Victoria closed due to rush hour overcrowding or steel rails buckling/trackside fires somewhere between Victoria and East Croydon on account of the temperature reaching a fearsome 30 degrees? Or maybe even the dream double Get Out Of Jail card to excuse Southern having to stick to even their pitiful emergency timetable.
 








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