Southern Rail STRIKE details

[Ernest]

I think Enrest is confused. It's Hundreds of thousand's of working people and their Companies who are suffering, compared to the few hundred non working Railway employees and their Company.

You CONFUSE me with your STUPIDITY

 

[Guinness Boy]

I think Enrest is confused. It's Hundreds of thousand's of working people and their Companies who are suffering, compared to the few hundred non working Railway employees and their Company.

You CONFUSE me with your STUPIDITY

No he's right. The suffering being caused to ordinary businesses and commuters, football fans, kids getting to school and pensioners off to their friends is now entirely disproportionate to the suffering caused by whether someone presses a button or not. SASTA are a disgrace, don't get me wrong, there is absolutely no excuse for their behaviour, but the longer this goes on the less good will the unions will have. I'd say their support is eroding daily. They need to start providing the services we've all paid for and find more constructive ways to take on SASTA. It's abundantly clear SASTA don't give a flying f***.

 

[Ernest]

No he's right. The suffering being caused to ordinary businesses and commuters, football fans, kids getting to school and pensioners off to their friends is now entirely disproportionate to the suffering caused by whether someone presses a button or not. SASTA are a disgrace, don't get me wrong, there is absolutely no excuse for their behaviour, but the longer this goes on the less good will the unions will have. I'd say their support is eroding daily. They need to start providing the services we've all paid for and find more constructive ways to take on SASTA. It's abundantly clear SASTA don't give a flying f***.

All the time the DfT/Government want to continue the war it will, you know the fight is being caused by them if it wasn't then this dispute would have been settled months ago. Wilkinson said he wanted to smash the railway unions and warned it might take years so you've only had a few months so unless they change there is no hope of things getting better, just worse when ASLEF join in.

 

[perseus]

If you want a service efficient safe railway for the customers you need more staff with Government subsidy

If you want a financially value for money railway for lower fares and profit for the shareholder the railways need less staff (or less wages).

Hence opposed views.

I don't think anybody believes the safety aspect is the root cause.

 

[Guinness Boy]

All the time the DfT/Government want to continue the war it will, you know the fight is being caused by them if it wasn't then this dispute would have been settled months ago. Wilkinson said he wanted to smash the railway unions and warned it might take years so you've only had a few months so unless they change there is no hope of things getting better, just worse when ASLEF join in.

All along the unions have said this is about safety. If the majority of passengers start to say "actually I just want my service back, I'll take the risk thanks" then what's your mandate? I agree that this could have been settled a long while ago with the same deal that ScotRail got and that the hand of the DfT is all over the fact that is wasn't. However, the reason they can get away with it is because they suspect they can plug the line it's not all about safety. If it is then why do the drivers only join now? Why weren't they striking before?

 

[Ernest]

Why weren't they striking before?

Because SASTA took them to court rather than settle the dispute properly before it took hold

 

[Spiros]

So why didn't the unions strike when Thameslink, C2C, Great Western, Chiltern, etc all introduced driver only operation? If DOO isn't safe now, then surely it wasn't safe then either?

If the unions had been all over this from the start then more people might have some sympathy with them. As it is, it just looks like good old fashioned 1970's style job protectionism. The only difference is that industrial action has traditionally been used to hurt the employers. In this case strikes are being held in the full knowledge that the employers don't give a shit and it's only the public being impacted

 

[Bozza]

However, the reason they can get away with it is because they suspect they can plug the line it's not all about safety. If it is then why do the drivers only join now? Why weren't they striking before?

It was too early to do the Christmas shopping?

 

[beorhthelm]

All the time the DfT/Government want to continue the war it will, you know the fight is being caused by them if it wasn't then this dispute would have been settled months ago.

yep, by the RMT simply agreeing to a set of procedures and rules for exception when the second safety trained person would be required. the union could then have ensured the rail company stuck to that agreement. as it is, there is no agreement, so Southern aren't bound by anything other than their whim when a second safety trained person is required. in their blind rejection of this condition, they have weakened their own hand for the future.

 

[Common as Mook]

So why didn't the unions strike when Thameslink, C2C, Great Western, Chiltern, etc all introduced driver only operation? If DOO isn't safe now, then surely it wasn't safe then either?

If the unions had been all over this from the start then more people might have some sympathy with them. As it is, it just looks like good old fashioned 1970's style job protectionism. The only difference is that industrial action has traditionally been used to hurt the employers. In this case strikes are being held in the full knowledge that the employers don't give a shit and it's only the public being impacted

No-one has been able to give a coherent answer to this yet, which kind of proves your point I guess.

 

[ROSM]

All along the unions have said this is about safety. If the majority of passengers start to say "actually I just want my service back, I'll take the risk thanks" then what's your mandate? I agree that this could have been settled a long while ago with the same deal that ScotRail got and that the hand of the DfT is all over the fact that is wasn't. However, the reason they can get away with it is because they suspect they can plug the line it's not all about safety. If it is then why do the drivers only join now? Why weren't they striking before?

Aslef had previously voted to strike but this had been cancelled following a injunction sought by gtr

Aslef voted again. Which is the strike that now happens

 

[ROSM]

No-one has been able to give a coherent answer to this yet, which kind of proves your point I guess.

From what I understand the main differences between then and now is that trains are longer and that it's noting being proposed for stations that are un manned

Also there have been a number of issues with drivers now having action taken against them for situations where passengers have been drag under trains etc

 

[beorhthelm]

From what I understand the main differences between then and now is that trains are longer and that it's noting being proposed for stations that are un manned

GTR trains are longer than most others on the network, and there's unmanned stations right across the Southern metro/Thameslink network. so thats not the reason.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

From what I understand the main differences between then and now is that trains are longer and that it's noting being proposed for stations that are un manned

Also there have been a number of issues with drivers now having action taken against them for situations where passengers have been drag under trains etc

There are many more unmanned stations now ( staff cuts to boost shareholder profits and increase director bonuses rather than lower fares ).


Which means DOO is more of an issue.

I guess the unions have conceded they can't turn back the clock and reverse existing changes as no company will ditch DOO and get new rolling stock.

 

[skipper734]

I may not be as intelligent as Ernest, who obviously has a brain the size of a Planet. But I am older and have been watching these same futile Union actions since I was a little lad. Unions haven't won one yet, just helped destroy the industry they are supposed to support.

 

[dazzer6666]

I may not be as intelligent as Ernest, who obviously has a brain the size of a Planet. But I am older and have been watching these same futile Union actions since I was a little lad. Unions haven't won one yet, just helped destroy the industry they are supposed to support.

 

[pearl]

You see for me this is where the driver's argument falls down. You have two parts of this franchise (I've driven trains for both by the way) and can tell you it's no fun when you are on your own with a packed 8-car train being told by the signaller that, because of a fault with a safety system, I have to detrain my passengers at Selhurst and take the empty train to Selhurst Depot. This would have left about 800 very angry people with no more direct services through the City in the rush-hour and having to circulate via Victoria or going back to East Croydon.
But Thameslink drivers did and still do run DOO trains in even longer formations. DOO? I don't agree with it as I think having another person to deal with the needs of passengers in an incident while I (the Driver) deal with the operational side of things is the best solution. Drivers, when DOO was introduced, were quite happy to take the extra pay involved in working a shift involving DOO trains. In fact many would go out of their way (after working a non-DOO shift) to work a DOO train after their shift had ended to get both the extra time AND the DOO payment. But that was in the days when our salary, such as it was, was made up of many add-ons like attendance allowance, mileage and DOO. Now drivers have all their pay (except perhaps London Weighting) consolidated into a fixed salary (plus overtime) So DOO has even less appeal. I could see this issue and it's consequences a mile off - as soon as Southern got the franchise. But both parties , especially the unions, have been caught off-guard. Having 12-car trains rattling quite merrily up and down the BML in Thameslink livery with the sanction of Aslef surely negates their argument to Southern asking the same thing for them. And I say that with a total dislike for Southern.

I think this earlier post sheds some light

 

[Arthur]

I think this earlier post sheds some light

So it is about money then....at least for the drivers anyway.

 

[Buzzer]

So it is about money then....at least for the drivers anyway.

Looks that way to me.

 

[ROSM]

GTR trains are longer than most others on the network, and there's unmanned stations right across the Southern metro/Thameslink network. so thats not the reason.

The unmanming of stations is something that has increased significantly in last couple of years and thameslink trains used to be 4 or 8 coaches and are now 12