Southern Rail STRIKE details

[ROSM]

Still on way home having had 4 trains cancelled. 3 if which were driver only ones which had no driver available and other one was a Gatwick express that had run from Gatwick to Haywards heath with the brake stuck on

 

[AmexRuislip]

Those were the days

 

[Tony Meolas Loan Spell]

7.32 Btn to London Bridge cancelled again. Yep the evidence is MY OWN EYES/EXPERIENCE

 

[el punal]

But as you've already been told, its not guards they are short on. Its DRIVERS. How good is rolling out DOO going to be when there aren't enough drivers to drive the bloody things in the first place?

So how long will it take to recruit, train (no pun intended), and finally, allow new drivers to operate trains, so that a full service can be implemented throughout the region?

I am perplexed by this state of affairs. Forget the current dispute of DOO/ Guard duties, Govia or Southern must have known about this shortfall of staff ages ago, and for whatever reason, chose to ignore it. If that is the case then it's scandalous, and they should hang their heads in shame.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

7.32 Btn to London Bridge cancelled again. Yep the evidence is MY OWN EYES/EXPERIENCE

SASTA need to be bothered enough to employ enough staff to actually run their emergency timetable.

Although, of course, staff cost money and that'll hit executive bonuses. Can't have that.

 

[Yoda]

Still on way home having had 4 trains cancelled. 3 if which were driver only ones which had no driver available and other one was a Gatwick express that had run from Gatwick to Haywards heath with the brake stuck on

That can't be right. According to [MENTION=2422]Tony Meolas Loan Spell[/MENTION] it's all the Guards fault and DOO will solve everything.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Some good news at last, although how long it will last, is anyone's guess.

[tweet]778152423542095872[/tweet]

 

[Arthur]

Some good news at last, although how long it will last, is anyone's guess.

[tweet]778152423542095872[/tweet]

That is good news however I feel it's just going to have a detrimental effect on the rest of the network. The last few weeks (last week was particularly bad) since they made a big song and dance about restoring services have been awful for cancellations for the same old reason.....lack of train crew.

It's all very well them banging on about how great it's going to be in a couple of years I'd rather they addressed the problem at hand first.

 

[pearl]

That is good news however I feel it's just going to have a detrimental effect on the rest of the network. The last few weeks (last week was particularly bad) since they made a big song and dance about restoring services have been awful for cancellations for the same old reason.....lack of train crew.

YEP! my daily commute to Lewes and back (Brighton) is now back to April situation .... cancelled trains at short notice. Hardly a commute I know, but it feels like one

Been late for work last two Mondays, sure my boss thinks I'm hungover, can't make plans for evening cos when I do GTR **** them up

 

[Uter]

On a related note the 2018 timetable consultation was launched last week and they are proposing more services to Falmer (up to 6 an hour if the related proposal to split the Ashford service into two goes ahead).

http://www.southernrailway.com/your-journey/timetable-consultation

Proposals for increased train services between Brighton and Lewes

We are aware of significant growth to and from Falmer in connection with the Universities which have increased the number of students attending and people travelling to the AMEX Stadium which opened in 2011 for a range of events.
In light of these developments we propose an increase in train service to address this. Our proposals include a more frequent train service between Brighton and Lewes with an increase from five to six trains per hour. An additional Brighton to Lewes train would be introduced calling at all stations.

These proposals would mean that passengers travelling between Brighton, Lewes, Eastbourne and Hastings would have an improved journey time as these trains would no longer serve London Road (Brighton) or Moulsecoomb. London Road (Brighton and Moulsecoomb stations would continue to be served four times per hour by Lewes and Seaford trains.

Under these proposals, Falmer could be served by up to six trains per hour subject to the consultation responses affecting the Brighton to Ashford International services

 

[pearl]

On a related note the 2018 timetable consultation was launched last week and they are proposing more services to Falmer (up to 6 an hour if the related proposal to split the Ashford service into two goes ahead).

http://www.southernrailway.com/your-journey/timetable-consultation

Proposals for increased train services between Brighton and Lewes

We are aware of significant growth to and from Falmer in connection with the Universities which have increased the number of students attending and people travelling to the AMEX Stadium which opened in 2011 for a range of events.
In light of these developments we propose an increase in train service to address this. Our proposals include a more frequent train service between Brighton and Lewes with an increase from five to six trains per hour. An additional Brighton to Lewes train would be introduced calling at all stations.

These proposals would mean that passengers travelling between Brighton, Lewes, Eastbourne and Hastings would have an improved journey time as these trains would no longer serve London Road (Brighton) or Moulsecoomb. London Road (Brighton and Moulsecoomb stations would continue to be served four times per hour by Lewes and Seaford trains.

Under these proposals, Falmer could be served by up to six trains per hour subject to the consultation responses affecting the Brighton to Ashford International services

they propose a lot of things .... sorry to be negative

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

It's all very well them banging on about how great it's going to be in a couple of years I'd rather they addressed the problem at hand first.

The rail industry has been doing that for as long as I can remember. It's always jam tomorrow. Always will be.

 

[Yoda]

So how long will it take to recruit, train (no pun intended), and finally, allow new drivers to operate trains, so that a full service can be implemented throughout the region?

I am perplexed by this state of affairs. Forget the current dispute of DOO/ Guard duties, Govia or Southern must have known about this shortfall of staff ages ago, and for whatever reason, chose to ignore it. If that is the case then it's scandalous, and they should hang their heads in shame.

The best person to answer that would be [MENTION=1332]Deadly Danson[/MENTION]

 

[albionite]

Some good news at last, although how long it will last, is anyone's guess.

[tweet]778152423542095872[/tweet]

So more drivers not on their summer holidays.

Can't be down to the guards as they have even less than they did in May.

 

[Ernest]

The best person to answer that would be [MENTION=1332]Deadly Danson[/MENTION]

From the job centre till actually driving a train is well over 12 months now due to a shortage of trainers and driver instructors

 

[ROSM]

Apparently loads of managers have been on an intensive course to qualify as guards so they can staff the seaford line. Begs a few questions;

- I thought they didnt need guards
- I thought it was easy and didn't need skills so why the intensive training
- Who is doing the managers jobs when they're being guards?
- Why not just employ the guards they need?
- What use are guards when they don't have enough drivers to even operate the DOO routes?

 

[Arthur]

You couldn't make it up. Trying to login to their online passenger panel and getting the above. Can they do anything right?

 

[Uter]

So how long will it take to recruit, train (no pun intended), and finally, allow new drivers to operate trains, so that a full service can be implemented throughout the region?

I am perplexed by this state of affairs. Forget the current dispute of DOO/ Guard duties, Govia or Southern must have known about this shortfall of staff ages ago, and for whatever reason, chose to ignore it. If that is the case then it's scandalous, and they should hang their heads in shame.

I am posting a quote from another site from a Southern driver about training. Key point is they can only cope with 8 new trainees a month and a proportion of these will just be needed to cover drivers retiring or moving to other TOCs. Presumably the drip feeding of services being restored relates to the rate of drivers completing their long training. I don't know what the situation is on Thameslink, but I'd guess it's a similar story. I understand that when GTR took over from FCC they discovered they were around 50 drivers short of what they expected. It looks like FCC let the driver number fall once it was apparent they wouldn't retain the franchise. Presumably the franchise agreement was not robust enough to penalise them for doing this (!). More difficult to understand about Southern as it was and still is run by Govia.

Absolutely shocking that Southern and Thameslink were allowed to get into this state. Plenty of questions for the DfT to answer I think. Did the DfT know? If not, why not? And if they did, why didn't they take action earlier to prevent this mess?

Anyway, here is the Southern driver's explanation...


I’m a Driver for Southern- thought I might be able to clear up some things regarding staffing levels.

At Southern, driver training is a 12-18 month process. Three months in the school doing rules and traction training in the classroom/simulator/depot, followed by 225 hours (6+ working months if no delays) of supervised driving with an instructor, then route learning of the core routes applicable to the depot. Some depots have 15 working days (four weeks) of core routes, others have over 30. There’s also six weeks of annual leave to be taken during or just after the process. Once this is all completed, the trainee goes on a five day assessment exam with a competence development manager and either “passes out” as a qualified driver or is given feedback and an opportunity to brush up in certain areas before retesting a maximum of one more time. Once passed out, the driver then only knows the core routes, usually 1/6 to 1/3 of the available work in the depot. In a perfect world, the new driver would then go out and learn the rest of the required routes and become fully productive.

Southern’s driver training school has been running flat out for at least the past two or three years. However, it can only take in eight new trainees a month due to staff and equipment availability. If you expand the school, then you’ll need more driving instructors to take those trainees on their practical handling hours. If you promote more Drivers to be DIs, you’ll need more CDMs to do the assessments. About two years ago, when the training school started churning out more and more trainees, they were backlogged for several months unable to get their hours because there weren’t enough DIs. The company then hired more DIs (incurring a several-month process for them to be trained, during which they were off driving duties) and eventually the trainees started getting their hours, only to run into a bottleneck of not enough CDMs to assess them. That was resolved, but then the drivers couldn’t get released to learn the rest of their routes because they couldn’t be spared from the core routes. Eventually a decision was made that the route learning is more important for the long term than running trains in the short term, which is a main reason why there have been so many cancellations for lack of crew in the past couple of years (especially on the routes that are last to learn such as West Croydon, Dorking, Wimbledon).

However, the fact remains that they can only induct eight new drivers per month. If more qualified drivers than that number leave, then there will be a net loss. Southern’s Drivers do more intensive work for less pay than any of the other London metro TOCs (except maybe TL, though unlike them we’re also required to work Sundays), so there will always be a trend for migration out of the company unless that changes.

 

[Ernest]

Apparently loads of managers have been on an intensive course to qualify as guards so they can staff the seaford line. Begs a few questions;

- I thought they didnt need guards
- I thought it was easy and didn't need skills so why the intensive training
- Who is doing the managers jobs when they're being guards?
- Why not just employ the guards they need?
- What use are guards when they don't have enough drivers to even operate the DOO routes?

Hopefully there will be no incidents caused by their lack of training

 

[el punal]

I am posting a quote from another site from a Southern driver about training. Key point is they can only cope with 8 new trainees a month and a proportion of these will just be needed to cover drivers retiring or moving to other TOCs. Presumably the drip feeding of services being restored relates to the rate of drivers completing their long training. I don't know what the situation is on Thameslink, but I'd guess it's a similar story. I understand that when GTR took over from FCC they discovered they were around 50 drivers short of what they expected. It looks like FCC let the driver number fall once it was apparent they wouldn't retain the franchise. Presumably the franchise agreement was not robust enough to penalise them for doing this (!). More difficult to understand about Southern as it was and still is run by Govia.

Absolutely shocking that Southern and Thameslink were allowed to get into this state. Plenty of questions for the DfT to answer I think. Did the DfT know? If not, why not? And if they did, why didn't they take action earlier to prevent this mess?

Anyway, here is the Southern driver's explanation...


I’m a Driver for Southern- thought I might be able to clear up some things regarding staffing levels.

At Southern, driver training is a 12-18 month process. Three months in the school doing rules and traction training in the classroom/simulator/depot, followed by 225 hours (6+ working months if no delays) of supervised driving with an instructor, then route learning of the core routes applicable to the depot. Some depots have 15 working days (four weeks) of core routes, others have over 30. There’s also six weeks of annual leave to be taken during or just after the process. Once this is all completed, the trainee goes on a five day assessment exam with a competence development manager and either “passes out” as a qualified driver or is given feedback and an opportunity to brush up in certain areas before retesting a maximum of one more time. Once passed out, the driver then only knows the core routes, usually 1/6 to 1/3 of the available work in the depot. In a perfect world, the new driver would then go out and learn the rest of the required routes and become fully productive.

Southern’s driver training school has been running flat out for at least the past two or three years. However, it can only take in eight new trainees a month due to staff and equipment availability. If you expand the school, then you’ll need more driving instructors to take those trainees on their practical handling hours. If you promote more Drivers to be DIs, you’ll need more CDMs to do the assessments. About two years ago, when the training school started churning out more and more trainees, they were backlogged for several months unable to get their hours because there weren’t enough DIs. The company then hired more DIs (incurring a several-month process for them to be trained, during which they were off driving duties) and eventually the trainees started getting their hours, only to run into a bottleneck of not enough CDMs to assess them. That was resolved, but then the drivers couldn’t get released to learn the rest of their routes because they couldn’t be spared from the core routes. Eventually a decision was made that the route learning is more important for the long term than running trains in the short term, which is a main reason why there have been so many cancellations for lack of crew in the past couple of years (especially on the routes that are last to learn such as West Croydon, Dorking, Wimbledon).

However, the fact remains that they can only induct eight new drivers per month. If more qualified drivers than that number leave, then there will be a net loss. Southern’s Drivers do more intensive work for less pay than any of the other London metro TOCs (except maybe TL, though unlike them we’re also required to work Sundays), so there will always be a trend for migration out of the company unless that changes.

Thank you for that information. But what a shocking situation to end up in. Whoever is responsible, be it DfT, Southern, Govia or Uncle Tom Cobley, they need shooting (metaphorically, of course).

If this problem was known about months, if not years, ago, why was it not addressed? It is blindingly obvious, from your post, that if there was going to be a desperate shortage of drivers it would lead to the chaos that we have now. What's the point of overseeing a transport system if you have no one to run it?

So I suppose the next logical question, again based on your information, how long would it take to ensure that there enough drivers available to ensure that we have a full, 100%, service in operation?