Someone else using your ST when you can't make it ... [Uh oh. Post 43]

[clapham_gull]

It's not right. It's fans getting together to discuss a safe and easy way of passing on their STs when they can't get to games and then a member of the senior management team steaming into the thread to tell us that the club will close this avenue because they don't trust us and they don't like it. And if we try then the club will punish the fans.

No discussion, no moment taken for reflection, no reaching out to fans to hear suggestions, no explanation as to why the club have had over 5 years to come up with some sort of ticket exchange and failed. That's not access to the upper echelons, it's just a way for the club to carry on treating us as if we're trying to rob the club or bring it down.

See also that ridiculously heavy-handed letter telling us that we must uphold the honour of the club at all times. Christ on a bike, that's not dialogue, it's a headmaster addressing a school assembly.

Yep. Customer or member of a private members club with punitive fines..

Charge all you like for a beer, pie or scarf of season ticket. but £15 to replace the plastic ? Come on.

 

[Insider]

Happy to answer questions on this subject via Ask the Club. But here is some additional feedback from the club, having caught up on this thread this evening. Apologies, but I've been pretty busy since last posting and not looked at this thread or NSC since yesterday.

Unfortunately, it appears that a small number of people may have mis-used our print at home ticket replacement service on occasions using it instead as unofficial season ticket exchange system.

There are a number of issues with this:

- this is not what the service was intended to do
- season tickets are sold at a significant discount to one purchaser
- as such, season tickets are not transferable
- only 1901 Club members have the right to transfer the use of memberships for individual match access (and they have paid a premium for this right, amongst others)
- the unofficial or unauthorised re-sale (or transfer for no consideration) of tickets to football matches is illegal (Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994)
- aside from the legalities, there are inherent risks (for the club and supporter) in selling on (or passing on) season tickets to known or unknown individuals
- we’ve made supporters aware of these risks on numerous occasions; supporters risk losing their season ticket and being banned from purchasing tickets if they transfer tickets without the club’s authorisation
- the unofficial re-sale or transfer of season tickets when the club is still selling match tickets is clearly not going to be acceptable to any football club at any level
- the club operates a ticket exchange if, and when, it declares a sell out (this is the same as all clubs but those who have official re-selling arrangements in place with external providers for which they typically receive an upfront fee)
- the club’s own ticket exchange was activated for the Norwich City match (even though we still had a limited number of single seats and some hospitality seats still available) to help fans who couldn’t come to the game realise some value for their season ticket, and to encourage more fans in to the stadium by potentially creating availability for pairs of tickets
- apart from the very biggest matches, there will always be a low take up on ticket exchanges for single seats offered for re-sale (this is particularly true if the club has been unable to sell its own remaining single seats)
- ordinarily, it makes absolutely no sense for the club to allow or authorise the private sale or exchange of tickets when the club itself is still selling tickets
- our club has one of the most flexible season tickets in the country offering upgrades for both junior and senior tickets up to 6 times per season; and we also provide interest and fee free payment options
- the club therefore has a right, and an absolute need, to protect and preserve its core revenue streams; the vast majority of supporters understand and respect this

Of course the club wants the stadium to be full for every match. But when there are tickets for sale, our priority is to sell those tickets. If we reach a sell-out, the ticket exchange scheme can operate and supporters that cannot attend can officially (and legally) receive some benefit for their ticket that would otherwise be unused. Critically, the club is monitoring who such tickets are sold on to.

Sadly, as with a few other ticket revenue protection-related issues our ticketing staff have identified and dealt with since the stadium opened, a very small number of people have mis-used a facility designed to help those who have genuinely forgotten or mislaid their season ticket. The club has a responsibility to close such loopholes or resolve such issues whenever they arise – and we will continue to do this.

Finally, We fully appreciate that such decisions may make us unpopular with some but so be it. Our primary responsibilities are to ensure the club’s revenue streams are protected, to ensure that we fully comply with the law, to meet the terms of our ground regulations, and to ensure that - to the best of our ability - the stadium is filled with supporters entitled to be there, which in turn minimises safety and security risks for everyone.

 

[clapham_gull]

Happy to answer questions on this subject via Ask the Club. But here is some additional feedback from the club.

Unfortunately, it appears that a small number of people may have mis-used our print at home ticket replacement service on occasions using it instead as unofficial season ticket exchange system.

There are a number of issues with this:

- this is not what the service was intended to do
- season tickets are sold at a significant discount to one purchaser
- as such, season tickets are not transferable
- only 1901 Club members have the right to transfer the use of memberships for individual match access (and they have paid a premium for this right, amongst others)
- the unofficial or unauthorised re-sale (or transfer for no consideration) of tickets to football matches is illegal (Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994)
- aside from the legalities, there are inherent risks (for the club and supporter) in selling on (or passing on) season tickets to known or unknown individuals
- we’ve made supporters aware of these risks on numerous occasions; supporters risk losing their season ticket and being banned from purchasing tickets if they transfer tickets without the club’s authorisation
- the unofficial re-sale or transfer of season tickets when the club is still selling match tickets is clearly not going to be acceptable to any football club at any level
- the club operates a ticket exchange if, and when, it declares a sell out (this is the same as all clubs but those who have official re-selling arrangements in place with external providers for which they typically receive an upfront fee)
- the club’s own ticket exchange was activated for the Norwich City match (even though we still had a limited number of single seats and some hospitality seats still available) to help fans who couldn’t come to the game realise some value for their season ticket, and to encourage more fans in to the stadium by potentially creating availability for pairs of tickets
- apart from the very biggest matches, there will always be a low take up on ticket exchanges for single seats offered for re-sale (this is particularly true if the club has been unable to sell its own remaining single seats)
- ordinarily, it makes absolutely no sense for the club to allow or authorise the private sale or exchange of tickets when the club itself is still selling tickets
- our club has one of the most flexible season tickets in the country offering upgrades for both junior and senior tickets up to 6 times per season; and we also provide interest and fee free payment options
- the club therefore has a right, and an absolute need, to protect and preserve its core revenue streams; the vast majority of supporters understand and respect this

Of course the club wants the stadium to be full for every match. But when there are tickets for sale, our priority is to sell those tickets. If we reach a sell-out, the ticket exchange scheme can operate and supporters that cannot attend can officially (and legally) receive some benefit for their ticket that would otherwise be unused. Critically, the club is monitoring who such tickets are sold on to.

Sadly, as with a few other ticket revenue protection-related issues our ticketing staff have identified and dealt with since the stadium opened, a very small number of people have mis-used a facility designed to help those who have genuinely forgotten or mislaid their season ticket. The club has a responsibility to close such loopholes or resolve such issues whenever they arise – and we will continue to do this.

Finally, We fully appreciate that such decisions may make us unpopular with some but so be it. Our primary responsibilities are to ensure the club’s revenue streams are protected, to ensure that we fully comply with the law, to meet the terms of our ground regulations, and to ensure that - to the best of our ability - the stadium is filled with supporters entitled to be there, which in turn minimises safety and security risks for everyone.

Serious question.

How does any of the above lead to a charge of £15 for a replacement season ticket ? I'm struggling to see how it has anything to do with "lending" your ticket to someone.

Is it genuinely on the basis that people who lend their tickets are more likely to lose them - therefore we must apply a catch all £15 pound charge ?

TFL don't like you sharing your Oyster (it's a criminal offence with a travel card) but they don't charge you £15 if you lose it

That's a tax on those who lose things, it's very very Ryanair,

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Happy to answer questions on this subject via Ask the Club. But here is some additional feedback from the club, having caught up on this thread this evening. Apologies, but I've been pretty busy since last posting and not looked at this thread or NSC since yesterday.

Unfortunately, it appears that a small number of people may have mis-used our print at home ticket replacement service on occasions using it instead as unofficial season ticket exchange system.

There are a number of issues with this:

- this is not what the service was intended to do
- season tickets are sold at a significant discount to one purchaser
- as such, season tickets are not transferable
- only 1901 Club members have the right to transfer the use of memberships for individual match access (and they have paid a premium for this right, amongst others)
- the unofficial or unauthorised re-sale (or transfer for no consideration) of tickets to football matches is illegal (Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994)
- aside from the legalities, there are inherent risks (for the club and supporter) in selling on (or passing on) season tickets to known or unknown individuals
- we’ve made supporters aware of these risks on numerous occasions; supporters risk losing their season ticket and being banned from purchasing tickets if they transfer tickets without the club’s authorisation
- the unofficial re-sale or transfer of season tickets when the club is still selling match tickets is clearly not going to be acceptable to any football club at any level
- the club operates a ticket exchange if, and when, it declares a sell out (this is the same as all clubs but those who have official re-selling arrangements in place with external providers for which they typically receive an upfront fee)
- the club’s own ticket exchange was activated for the Norwich City match (even though we still had a limited number of single seats and some hospitality seats still available) to help fans who couldn’t come to the game realise some value for their season ticket, and to encourage more fans in to the stadium by potentially creating availability for pairs of tickets
- apart from the very biggest matches, there will always be a low take up on ticket exchanges for single seats offered for re-sale (this is particularly true if the club has been unable to sell its own remaining single seats)
- ordinarily, it makes absolutely no sense for the club to allow or authorise the private sale or exchange of tickets when the club itself is still selling tickets
- our club has one of the most flexible season tickets in the country offering upgrades for both junior and senior tickets up to 6 times per season; and we also provide interest and fee free payment options
- the club therefore has a right, and an absolute need, to protect and preserve its core revenue streams; the vast majority of supporters understand and respect this

Of course the club wants the stadium to be full for every match. But when there are tickets for sale, our priority is to sell those tickets. If we reach a sell-out, the ticket exchange scheme can operate and supporters that cannot attend can officially (and legally) receive some benefit for their ticket that would otherwise be unused. Critically, the club is monitoring who such tickets are sold on to.

Sadly, as with a few other ticket revenue protection-related issues our ticketing staff have identified and dealt with since the stadium opened, a very small number of people have mis-used a facility designed to help those who have genuinely forgotten or mislaid their season ticket. The club has a responsibility to close such loopholes or resolve such issues whenever they arise – and we will continue to do this.

Finally, We fully appreciate that such decisions may make us unpopular with some but so be it. Our primary responsibilities are to ensure the club’s revenue streams are protected, to ensure that we fully comply with the law, to meet the terms of our ground regulations, and to ensure that - to the best of our ability - the stadium is filled with supporters entitled to be there, which in turn minimises safety and security risks for everyone.

Purely for interest, how many tickets were resold through the official exchange, for the Norwich game?

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Happy to answer questions on this subject via Ask the Club. But here is some additional feedback from the club, having caught up on this thread this evening. Apologies, but I've been pretty busy since last posting and not looked at this thread or NSC since yesterday.

Unfortunately, it appears that a small number of people may have mis-used our print at home ticket replacement service on occasions using it instead as unofficial season ticket exchange system.

There are a number of issues with this:

- this is not what the service was intended to do
- season tickets are sold at a significant discount to one purchaser
- as such, season tickets are not transferable
- only 1901 Club members have the right to transfer the use of memberships for individual match access (and they have paid a premium for this right, amongst others)
- the unofficial or unauthorised re-sale (or transfer for no consideration) of tickets to football matches is illegal (Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994)
- aside from the legalities, there are inherent risks (for the club and supporter) in selling on (or passing on) season tickets to known or unknown individuals
- we’ve made supporters aware of these risks on numerous occasions; supporters risk losing their season ticket and being banned from purchasing tickets if they transfer tickets without the club’s authorisation
- the unofficial re-sale or transfer of season tickets when the club is still selling match tickets is clearly not going to be acceptable to any football club at any level
- the club operates a ticket exchange if, and when, it declares a sell out (this is the same as all clubs but those who have official re-selling arrangements in place with external providers for which they typically receive an upfront fee)
- the club’s own ticket exchange was activated for the Norwich City match (even though we still had a limited number of single seats and some hospitality seats still available) to help fans who couldn’t come to the game realise some value for their season ticket, and to encourage more fans in to the stadium by potentially creating availability for pairs of tickets
- apart from the very biggest matches, there will always be a low take up on ticket exchanges for single seats offered for re-sale (this is particularly true if the club has been unable to sell its own remaining single seats)
- ordinarily, it makes absolutely no sense for the club to allow or authorise the private sale or exchange of tickets when the club itself is still selling tickets
- our club has one of the most flexible season tickets in the country offering upgrades for both junior and senior tickets up to 6 times per season; and we also provide interest and fee free payment options
- the club therefore has a right, and an absolute need, to protect and preserve its core revenue streams; the vast majority of supporters understand and respect this

Of course the club wants the stadium to be full for every match. But when there are tickets for sale, our priority is to sell those tickets. If we reach a sell-out, the ticket exchange scheme can operate and supporters that cannot attend can officially (and legally) receive some benefit for their ticket that would otherwise be unused. Critically, the club is monitoring who such tickets are sold on to.

Sadly, as with a few other ticket revenue protection-related issues our ticketing staff have identified and dealt with since the stadium opened, a very small number of people have mis-used a facility designed to help those who have genuinely forgotten or mislaid their season ticket. The club has a responsibility to close such loopholes or resolve such issues whenever they arise – and we will continue to do this.

Finally, We fully appreciate that such decisions may make us unpopular with some but so be it. Our primary responsibilities are to ensure the club’s revenue streams are protected, to ensure that we fully comply with the law, to meet the terms of our ground regulations, and to ensure that - to the best of our ability - the stadium is filled with supporters entitled to be there, which in turn minimises safety and security risks for everyone.

Thank you for making that clear.

 

[Insider]

Purely for interest, how many tickets were resold through the official exchange, for the Norwich game?

It was a minimal number, due to the fact we sold out very late on.

 

[Mackenzie]

It was a minimal number, due to the fact we sold out very late on.

It was zero wasn't it

Thanks for the earlier clarification.

 

[Insider]

Serious question.

How does any of the above lead to a charge of £15 for a replacement season ticket ? I'm struggling to see how it has anything to do with "lending" your ticket to someone.

Is it genuinely on the basis that people who lend their tickets are more likely to lose them - therefore we must apply a catch all £15 pound charge ?

TFL don't like you sharing your Oyster (it's a criminal offence with a travel card) but they don't charge you £15 if you lose it

That's a tax on those who lose things, it's very very Ryanair,

Originally the charge was much more minimal, but sadly this resulted in an abnormal number of "lost" cards - our suspicion was they were being sold on and used, then being reported lost and reprinted. Hence the change. Since then lost card numbers have fallen considerably.

 

[Insider]

It was zero wasn't it

Thanks for the earlier clarification.

Not quite, but only a very small number were made available for resale.

 

[Bozza]

Share your ticket with people you know and trust when you can't go. Give them your physical ticket and get it back at some point after. No one, including the club, will be unhappy about this.

Those who've bought tickets but rarely go (maybe 'reserving' seats in case we reach the Premier League) and punt them out on the cheap to anyone they can find are not really doing anyone any favours. If it's more difficult for them to do this, then it's all good as far as I'm concerned.

 

[DanRedman]

Why create this post?

 

[clapham_gull]

Originally the charge was much more minimal, but sadly this resulted in an abnormal number of "lost" cards - our suspicion was they were being sold on and used, then being reported lost and reprinted. Hence the change. Since then lost card numbers have fallen considerably.

Sorry that doesn't make sense.

I'm a season ticket holder, If I lose my card - the club deactivate and print a new one.

.. or do they ?

Same thing with Oyster. I can't "clone" a season ticket.

So as a season ticket holder, what activity are you trying to discourage me from doing by charging £15 to print a new card and disable the old one ?

.. selling my ticket to someone who can't then enter the ground ?

No need for "suspicion" you've got the recipient at the gate ?

It comes back to the same thing. They seems to have developed a hypothesis that "lending cards" is discouraged on the basis that you are more likely to lose it and therefore you charge a £15 fee to replace it.

Or simply - someone lends their card for a few games, can't be arsed to get it back so asks for a new one.

Why don't TFL operate the same policy for those who "lend" their season ticket which is illegal ?

Easy - not to piss off their customers ( who have paid for a period up-front ) who have genuinely lost their card. That's football for you, it's like school. Few "misbehave" and everyone else to suffer. I had a teacher like that. Unless somebody admitted "who did it" everyone stayed behind.

It's really not that difficult is it ? If someone is routinely asking for replacement cards - ring them up and ask why ?

Another question. What is the charge for a 1901 Customer who loses their card ?

 

[Bry Nylon]

Why create this post?

To separate the Besmirchers from the Mirchers.

 

[Insider]

Sorry that doesn't make sense.

I'm a season ticket holder, If I lose my card - the club deactivate and print a new one.

.. or do they ?

Same thing with Oyster. I can't "clone" a season ticket.

So as a season ticket holder, what activity are you trying to discourage me from doing by charging £15 to print a new card and disable the old one ?

.. selling my ticket to someone who can't then enter the ground ?

No need for "suspicion" you've got the recipient at the gate ?

It comes back to the same thing. They seems to have developed a hypothesis that "lending cards" is discouraged on the basis that you are more likely to lose it and therefore you charge a £15 fee to replace it.

Or simply - someone lends their card for a few games, can't be arsed to get it back so asks for a new one.

Why don't TFL operate the same policy for those who "lend" their season ticket which is illegal ?

Easy - not to piss off their customers ( who have paid for a period up-front ) who have genuinely lost their card.

Another question. What is the charge for a 1901 Customer who loses their card ?

No, that's not the point being made. If STH can't make the Norwich match, they pass/sell on ticket, recipient uses it for Norwich - then STH cancels card and requests a new one at minimal charge.

 

[Steve in Japan]

No, that's not the point being made. If STH can't make the Norwich match, they pass on ticket, recipient uses it for Norwich - then STH cancels card and requests a new one at minimal charge.

I couldn’t make the Norwich game, which I knew well in advance. What Club-approved process is in place for me to do the right thing.....i.e. make my ticket available to another punter.

 

[clapham_gull]

No, that's not the point being made. If STH can't make the Norwich match, they pass on ticket, recipient uses it for Norwich - then STH cancels card and requests a new one at minimal charge.

Nope

An Oyster season ticket registered to me. It's a season ticket. Oyster extends beyond Pay As You Go. It's a re-usable replacement for a paper ticket.

If I lose it, TFL cancel the old one and replace it.

It's exactly the same. with the same restrictions. TFL don't charge £15 to discourage the equally illegal activity of letting someone else use it. A season ticket (it's called the same) is non transferable.

You edited your post

Of course a rail season ticket on an Oyster is EXACTLY the same a football season ticket.

Why haven't TFL come to same reasoning ? Stop transfer of season tickets by applying a punitive fine for losing it ?

 

[portlock seagull]

All sounds reasonable to me. Now, what about the Cup Final money Mr Insider?!

 

[Titanic]

Share your ticket with people you know and trust when you can't go. Give them your physical ticket and get it back at some point after. No one, including the club, will be unhappy about this...

It would be nice to think that, wouldn't it...

- as such, season tickets are not transferable
- only 1901 Club members have the right to transfer the use of memberships for individual match access (and they have paid a premium for this right, amongst others)
- the unofficial or unauthorised re-sale (or transfer for no consideration) of tickets to football matches is illegal (Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994)
- aside from the legalities, there are inherent risks (for the club and supporter) in selling on (or passing on) season tickets to known or unknown individuals
- we’ve made supporters aware of these risks on numerous occasions; supporters risk losing their season ticket and being banned from purchasing tickets if they transfer tickets without the club’s authorisation
- the unofficial re-sale or transfer of season tickets when the club is still selling match tickets is clearly not going to be acceptable to any football club at any level
- ordinarily, it makes absolutely no sense for the club to allow or authorise the private sale or exchange of tickets when the club itself is still selling tickets

The problem is, the club DO appear unhappy about this.

 

[clapham_gull]

I think insider and the club have missunderstood the difference between maximum income stream and optimal income stream.
It seem utterly mad that a ticket exchange is not open at least when above a certain % of capacity. I am sure that would result in a higher ticket income for the club.

You'd think.

 

[Bozza]

It would be nice to think that, wouldn't it...

The problem is, the club DO appear unhappy about this.

I'm not sure the club can be seen to publically condone something which is illegal (technically, at least).

That said, I believe that I may have either read or heard Paul Barber say the club turn a blind eye to informal transfers between friends and family. It's a pragmatic and common sense approach. I can't be bothered to try and hunt the quote down right now though.