Sol Campbell - Race card played?

[User removed 4]

This.

Really ?? I gathered from all your posts on John Terry that you preferred an England captain who was a role model, not a drunken racist ?? Anyone would think you are a complete and utter hypocrite who only wants to tackle racism when its an easy target , and will brush it under the carpet when horror of horrors one of your poster boys gets found out.

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/new...ed-and-hit-me-claims-victim-article30032.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/englands-ledley-king-arrested-over-assault-1682413.html

 

[User removed 4]

I think if Ledley King had not had such bad injury problems he would have beaten the black record of 7 captain's caps shared by Ince and Rio.

Sol is a ****, great footballer but still a ****.

I would've hope this incident would have put paid to that, or is it only white players who can be guilty of racism ?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/englands-ledley-king-arrested-over-assault-1682413.html

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/new...ed-and-hit-me-claims-victim-article30032.html

 

[joeinbrighton]

An England captain of 10 years' standing would not walk out on his team at half time because he was being given the runaround by Bobby Zamora.

 

[joeinbrighton]

David Beckham was England captain without ever being the captain at Man Utd or Real Madrid.

Wasn't a bad captain though, was he?

That happens all the time in other countries. They pick their best player to be the captain - Zlatan Ibrahimovic and Cristiano Ronaldo are 2 current examples. To my knowledge, neither had captained any of their clubs previously either.

 

[joeinbrighton]

Amazed he hasn't garnered more sympathy on here (or anywhere else I've looked). I recall reading an interview with Campbell last year sometime where he outlined his frustrations with Gary and Phil Neville's fast-tracking into coaching by the FA when he himself had struggled to get a foot in the door anywhere despite his incredibly impressive playing record. Without going into a character assassination of the aforementioned, but despite Gary's excellent work on Sky I am yet to see some new or innovative work with England. This reputation is therefore IMHO wholly undeserved as a coach. I have seen nothing tactically from him or no forceful input or insight into England's shortcomings either before games or during games (I am yet to see an English manager or coach with the wherewithal to change a game with the use of tactical substitutions).

The question now becomes - Why are the Neville brothers being fast-tracked into senior coaching roles within the FA and others are not? As I stated earlier there is no proof to suggest that either of them are more knowledgeable or competent than Campbell (P.Neville is currently part of the least successful Utd team in decades). Perhaps it COULD be down to race. Perhaps they MAY have to answer uncomfortable questions if someone with his background was involved. We all read what happened with the French FA (FFF) and their clear insistence on less black or ethnic players being allowed into the national youth federation academies.

Another thing to consider is the ethnicity of the England teams nowadays. I don't know how many of you watch the England youth games (From U16's-21's) but there tend to be at least 6 Black players per team. This is in itself a change from 10 years ago..

Rather a strange post really. Phil Neville's level of blame to Manchester United's current league position is quite some way down in the food chain behind the players, David Moyes, Ed Woodward, Sir Alex Ferguson and the Glazers.

Also, in your comparison with the Nevilles, you also fail to mention that Gary Neville won 85 caps for England and in those 85 appearances, never once did he captain England. Was that because he was white? No, it was because there were other candidates around at the time and he played in a position that doesn't tend to spawn many armband wearers at international level.

 

[Cloughie]

Rather a strange post really. Phil Neville's level of blame to Manchester United's current league position is quite some way down in the food chain behind the players, David Moyes, Ed Woodward, Sir Alex Ferguson and the Glazers.

Also, in your comparison with the Nevilles, you also fail to mention that Gary Neville won 85 caps for England and in those 85 appearances, never once did he captain England. Was that because he was white? No, it was because there were other candidates around at the time and he played in a position that doesn't tend to spawn many armband wearers at international level.

What an equally bizarre reply. I also failed to mention Kenny Sansom won 86 caps for England and never once captained the side. He was white too, playing in a team during an era where the England team WAS predominately white. That is changing (Please see my post where I mention the England youth teams) and I dare say that in the next ten years we will have a regular black England captain. The basis of this assumption is based entirely on the statistic that there are currently more black players coming through the England youth teams.

Back to Campbell... He was the youngest player to captain England since Bobby Moore (albeit it was on a one-off occasion). This would suggest that he was being lined up for this job on a permanent basis in the future would you not agree? This never materialised. The reason(s) for this we'll never know but If you were said player and became the only England player to make the FIFA World XI and World Cup XI would you not wonder why?

As far as the Neville's go, neither you nor I could say what level of influence either of them carry at England or Manchester United but I can't say I've seen/heard of either of them having the foresight or ability to change a game using their tactical nous. Or push a players level up a notch or two due to their personal touches in training etc. They appear to be more out of the Stuart Pearce mold of 'I'll leave it as it is and see what happens'. Neither have done anything to suggest that they were worth fast-tracking into huge jobs in football.

FWIW I've never said that Campbell being black is the reason that he was never England captain or why he has struggled to get anywhere with his coaching/managing. I just suggested it MAY be the reason. Luther Blissett applied for jobs from the premiership to the conference north/south for a few years. He was never even invited for an interview anywhere. This is a man with international experience and who has played abroad, for Milan no less! When stuff like this is happening and you see so few black faces Managing/Coaching or even at executive levels of football questions need to be asked. They've addressed it in American football with 'Rooney's rule' and I think it's about time English football looked at that too.

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

Why make someone who leads by example captain? The inference is that they'd do it anyway, armband or no armband.

There's plenty who haven't and been captain. Remember Beckham vs Greece, he literally was an inspiration.

 

[1066familyman]

Maybe he could take this up with Clark Carlisle, Chairman of the Management Committee of the Professional Footballer's Association?

Or have a chat with Hope Powell as to how she managed England's Women for fifteen years. Mind you, he'd probably come away convinced that she was only ever vice captain of England as a player because she's black

The F.A is a long way from a perfect organisation, but Sol Campbell is barking up the wrong tree on this one.

 

[joeinbrighton]

What an equally bizarre reply. I also failed to mention Kenny Sansom won 86 caps for England and never once captained the side. He was white too, playing in a team during an era where the England team WAS predominately white. That is changing (Please see my post where I mention the England youth teams) and I dare say that in the next ten years we will have a regular black England captain. The basis of this assumption is based entirely on the statistic that there are currently more black players coming through the England youth teams.

Back to Campbell... He was the youngest player to captain England since Bobby Moore (albeit it was on a one-off occasion). This would suggest that he was being lined up for this job on a permanent basis in the future would you not agree? This never materialised. The reason(s) for this we'll never know but If you were said player and became the only England player to make the FIFA World XI and World Cup XI would you not wonder why?

As far as the Neville's go, neither you nor I could say what level of influence either of them carry at England or Manchester United but I can't say I've seen/heard of either of them having the foresight or ability to change a game using their tactical nous. Or push a players level up a notch or two due to their personal touches in training etc. They appear to be more out of the Stuart Pearce mold of 'I'll leave it as it is and see what happens'. Neither have done anything to suggest that they were worth fast-tracking into huge jobs in football.

FWIW I've never said that Campbell being black is the reason that he was never England captain or why he has struggled to get anywhere with his coaching/managing. I just suggested it MAY be the reason. Luther Blissett applied for jobs from the premiership to the conference north/south for a few years. He was never even invited for an interview anywhere. This is a man with international experience and who has played abroad, for Milan no less! When stuff like this is happening and you see so few black faces Managing/Coaching or even at executive levels of football questions need to be asked. They've addressed it in American football with 'Rooney's rule' and I think it's about time English football looked at that too.

When was Campbell first made captain? If, as I suspect, it was in the late-1990s, then the regular turnaround of managers during that era wouldn't have helped his chances. Hoddle managed for 3 years, Keegan for 18 months, Howard Wilkinson and Peter Taylor each had 1 match as manager (maybe 2 now I think of it in Wilkinson's case), and then Sven. Taylor made Beckham captain for the friendly against Italy and once Eriksson took over, he was always likely to retain him as captain because where Eriksson had spent a large portion of his managerial career, Italy, they have a tradition of making the best player in the team the captain. The armband carries less importance in Italy than England and so they just think, give it to the best player in the team and so a lot of the playmakers/number 10s in Italy tend to have worn the armband for their clubs - Baggio, Totti, Del Piero. At that time, Beckham was regarded as England's go-to player, so they gave him the armband. No real controversy, to be honest. If you think about it, Alan Shearer had been England's captain up to and including Euro 2000 and he was England's best player at the time.

With regards to the Nevilles, I'm not sure what influence you can really expect them to have. They don't pick the team, they don't decide the team's tactics, that's Roy Hodgson's and David Moyes' respective roles. I dare say they work a lot on the training pitch, particularly with the players that play in their old positions and I would envisage that they are involved in helping the players prepare psychologically for a big match, providing the insight of their own experience. Phil Neville was appointed by David Moyes presumably because knows both Moyes' methods having worked under him as a player for 8 years at Everton and the workings of Manchester United having been at United from the age of 10 until the age of 28. Short of getting Kyle Walker or Luke Shaw or whoever coming out in an England press conference and saying 'Gary Neville taught me this today', I doubt we will fully appreciate what Neville brings to the party because it will be small details. I would be surprised though if they take the approach of Stuart Pearce as both of them live and breathe the game and forever have new ideas about the game, as Gary Neville regularly demonstrates in his TV work. I would think Neville will be helpful to Hodgson in the summer in a tournament situation. I'd imagine if he was around at the last World Cup, he would have told Capello that it would be counter-productive to the team's chances to make them think they were in a prison between matches.

Now, I do think that there probably still are barriers that need to be overcome in football for black players and former players. The lack of black managers in the game when you consider the number of black players there are is certainly a cause for concern. But, I think the problem is that Campbell's grievance doesn't help here because it is more likely to not get addressed because people will see Campbell's complaint and see it for what it is, a selfish gripe from someone who is looking to generate a headline in order to publicise his memoirs.

 

[beorhthelm]

FWIW I've never said that Campbell being black is the reason that he was never England captain or why he has struggled to get anywhere with his coaching/managing. I just suggested it MAY be the reason.

maybe the reason he isnt getting anywhere in coaching is that he isnt coaching? i mean is he taking/taken his badges and finding no offers? or crying that the Neville brothers have been "fast tracked" over looking that they took their badges while still playing (at least in the case of Phil)? I'm pretty confident that with suitable badges and a realisitic attitude to salary (probably less a year than he earnt in a week), Campbell would find a coaching job at an English club. I wonder if one or both those criteria are a sticking point, not his colour. I look to Ince, who is clearly not a great manager but keeps plugging away at it, as an example of how those who are determined enough to break though barriers will do so.

 

[Cloughie]

maybe the reason he isnt getting anywhere in coaching is that he isnt coaching? i mean is he taking/taken his badges and finding no offers? or crying that the Neville brothers have been "fast tracked" over looking that they took their badges while still playing (at least in the case of Phil)? I'm pretty confident that with suitable badges and a realisitic attitude to salary (probably less a year than he earnt in a week), Campbell would find a coaching job at an English club. I wonder if one or both those criteria are a sticking point, not his colour. I look to Ince, who is clearly not a great manager but keeps plugging away at it, as an example of how those who are determined enough to break though barriers will do so.

He has the relevant coaching badges and is working with the youth players at Arsenal at the moment. His qualm was with regards to his application to coach for the FA (the U20's if I remember correctly). He was further on with his badges at the stage of applying than either Phil or Gary had been when the FA appointed them. This was all written about at the time but I imagine that people glossed over it as it was not long after the Ashworth-Southgate parnership had been put in place.

It is probably worth pointing out that neither Gary nor Phil Neville had the correct qualifications to take those roles full-time. They were working towards them (as you must accumulate a set times worth of coaching in order to progress). Campbell ended up finishing his with Wales if i'm not mistaken and was probably 'put-out' that he was not afforded such generosity.

 

[beorhthelm]

i stand corrected.

 

[Cloughie]

When was Campbell first made captain? If, as I suspect, it was in the late-1990s, then the regular turnaround of managers during that era wouldn't have helped his chances. Hoddle managed for 3 years, Keegan for 18 months, Howard Wilkinson and Peter Taylor each had 1 match as manager (maybe 2 now I think of it in Wilkinson's case), and then Sven. Taylor made Beckham captain for the friendly against Italy and once Eriksson took over, he was always likely to retain him as captain because where Eriksson had spent a large portion of his managerial career, Italy, they have a tradition of making the best player in the team the captain. The armband carries less importance in Italy than England and so they just think, give it to the best player in the team and so a lot of the playmakers/number 10s in Italy tend to have worn the armband for their clubs - Baggio, Totti, Del Piero. At that time, Beckham was regarded as England's go-to player, so they gave him the armband. No real controversy, to be honest. If you think about it, Alan Shearer had been England's captain up to and including Euro 2000 and he was England's best player at the time.

With regards to the Nevilles, I'm not sure what influence you can really expect them to have. They don't pick the team, they don't decide the team's tactics, that's Roy Hodgson's and David Moyes' respective roles. I dare say they work a lot on the training pitch, particularly with the players that play in their old positions and I would envisage that they are involved in helping the players prepare psychologically for a big match, providing the insight of their own experience. Phil Neville was appointed by David Moyes presumably because knows both Moyes' methods having worked under him as a player for 8 years at Everton and the workings of Manchester United having been at United from the age of 10 until the age of 28. Short of getting Kyle Walker or Luke Shaw or whoever coming out in an England press conference and saying 'Gary Neville taught me this today', I doubt we will fully appreciate what Neville brings to the party because it will be small details. I would be surprised though if they take the approach of Stuart Pearce as both of them live and breathe the game and forever have new ideas about the game, as Gary Neville regularly demonstrates in his TV work. I would think Neville will be helpful to Hodgson in the summer in a tournament situation. I'd imagine if he was around at the last World Cup, he would have told Capello that it would be counter-productive to the team's chances to make them think they were in a prison between matches.

Now, I do think that there probably still are barriers that need to be overcome in football for black players and former players. The lack of black managers in the game when you consider the number of black players there are is certainly a cause for concern. But, I think the problem is that Campbell's grievance doesn't help here because it is more likely to not get addressed because people will see Campbell's complaint and see it for what it is, a selfish gripe from someone who is looking to generate a headline in order to publicise his memoirs.

It was Hoddle. Perhaps there is an argument about Hoddle's connection to Tottenham perhaps being a reason for him gaining that captaincy but if you were Sol in that situation (ending up as a cornerstone for England for the next 10 years) wouldn't you have wondered why you didn't get the gig? Your point about the long-list of managerial casualties also is a valid point. But that could (and perhaps should) have worked in his favour with new managers wanting to stamp their authority/signature on the squad. Perhaps it is just me but I can understand somebody who was one of the nations top 5-6 players for 10 years, who regularly captained their club side and who plays in a posistion on the field which statistcally produces the most captains wondering why they given the job full-time. Perhaps it is because the FA is constitutionally racist. Perhaps not. But from what we've seen out of the FA over the past 10-15 years (when Campbell was playing) I wouldn't be shocked.

RE: the Nevilles - If someone is an especially good coach (Particularly one with such a high media profile as G.Neville has) you would hear about it. Think about what you've read and heard from the very best players over the years and you can see that that is the case. You even hear the "He's a great coach, just not a good manager" line being trotted out more ad more often these days with a larger number of teams setting up 'continental' management schemes.

I hope you're right about Gary. But I doubt it from what I've seen when he's been with England. You say he's not the manager but I bet he has some input on team and squad selection, tactics, training, planning etc otherwise what is the point of him as a recent ex-international being there? From what I saw at the Euro's where Hodgson, Lewington, Neville et al had a free go at a tournament (Nobody would have castigated any of them for underachieving at that tournament because nobody expected anything from them) and they did the same thing England did at every tournament. Sank without a trace. They could have came up with a different system to catch people out, could've played a team full of pace or younger players but they didn't. To make matters worse, they showed their lack of ambition or cowardice by calling up late replacement players who had struggled to make the bench of a struggling mid-table team (Henderson and Kelly). What is the point of getting on the plane unless you can win something or improve for the next tournament? I struggle to see the benefit of going to a tournament to tread water and that is what I associate G.Neville with. because he was part of that and seemed happy about it.

 

[Cloughie]

i stand corrected.

It depends what you've read mate. A lot of articles are misleading because they omit certain information to create a story. Campbell had a point there but it was overlooked by a lot of journalists. Who knows why. But what I do know is that Campbell's sulky/moody demeanor hasn't helped him out in any way.

 

[User removed 4]

This.

Your silence is deafening , I'll post this once again , just in case you missed it to give you a chance to reply
' Really ?? I gathered from all your posts on John Terry that you preferred an England captain who was a role model, not a drunken racist ?? Anyone would think you are a complete and utter hypocrite who only wants to tackle racism when its an easy target , and will brush it under the carpet when horror of horrors one of your poster boys gets found out.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/englands-ledley-king-arrested-over-assault-1682413.html

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/new...ed-and-hit-me-claims-victim-article30032.html

 

[User removed 4]

I think if Ledley King had not had such bad injury problems he would have beaten the black record of 7 captain's caps shared by Ince and Rio.

Sol is a ****, great footballer but still a ****.

Just in case you missed it i'll ask you again, do you still think the same after reading these articles ?
http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/new...ed-and-hit-me-claims-victim-article30032.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/englands-ledley-king-arrested-over-assault-1682413.html

 

[spring hall convert]

There's plenty who haven't and been captain. Remember Beckham vs Greece, he literally was an inspiration.

Which I'm sure he would have been armband or no armband. Personally I think you need a bit of nous as well.

Campbell raises a valid point here around unconscious, institutional racism in British football. It can't be denied, the FA's vaunted task force launching the other month without a single black face was an utterly damning indictment. In club football there's proportionally few black managers or coaches but how many black owners are there? I think we are past the point of conscious racism in the upper echelons of football but this is where the really hard work comes when we have to start changing unconscious behaviours and institutional bias.

As for Campbell, I think he's made himself look like a bit of an arrogant fool. Beckham was England captain for commercial reasons, ditto the promotion of golden boy Michael Owen ahead of Sol. I'm pretty sure that Sol's candidacy may have been taken a little more seriously had he not engineered a move to his team's most hated rival by running his contract down. I'm not sure those in power saw that as the behaviour of an England captain.

 

[sten_super]

I hope you're right about Gary. But I doubt it from what I've seen when he's been with England. You say he's not the manager but I bet he has some input on team and squad selection, tactics, training, planning etc otherwise what is the point of him as a recent ex-international being there? From what I saw at the Euro's where Hodgson, Lewington, Neville et al had a free go at a tournament (Nobody would have castigated any of them for underachieving at that tournament because nobody expected anything from them) and they did the same thing England did at every tournament. Sank without a trace. They could have came up with a different system to catch people out, could've played a team full of pace or younger players but they didn't. To make matters worse, they showed their lack of ambition or cowardice by calling up late replacement players who had struggled to make the bench of a struggling mid-table team (Henderson and Kelly). What is the point of getting on the plane unless you can win something or improve for the next tournament? I struggle to see the benefit of going to a tournament to tread water and that is what I associate G.Neville with. because he was part of that and seemed happy about it.

Bloody hell, I think you're pinning a hell of a lot of blame on an inexperienced coach that was at best 3rd-in-command.

You can make the case that Sol was discriminated against, that might well be true. But I think, anecdotally at least, we've come to understand that Sol Campbell was quite an introverted character, not vocal and not particularly good with people. Is it therefore that surprising that he's struggled to get a full time coaching role?

One stat that I'd love to see (but which I think is impossible to collect) is the percentage of qualified white coaches that are employment versus the percentage of equivalently qualified black coaches that are employed - I think that would give a decent indication of whether there was discrimination going on. I remember looking at the number of british coaches taking the Pro qualification the last time we had this discussion on NSC, and there were only a very small number of black coaches taking the qualification. I think that once this is addressed, and you have a representative number of black coaches but still few in top jobs, we could look at bringing in a Rooney rule equivalent. But at the moment I'm not convinced that it's a problem of lack of demand so much as lack of supply (of black coaches).

Just in case you missed it i'll ask you again, do you still think the same after reading these articles ?
http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/new...ed-and-hit-me-claims-victim-article30032.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/englands-ledley-king-arrested-over-assault-1682413.html

Just in case you missed it i'll ask you again, do you still think the same after reading these articles ?
http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/new...ed-and-hit-me-claims-victim-article30032.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/englands-ledley-king-arrested-over-assault-1682413.html

What point are you trying to make? That is appears that Ledley King is a racist? That if King was England captain when that happened in 2009 he might have had the captaincy taken away from him? Both of those are probably true. As far as I can see neither Pav nor Dandyman have condoned his views. If he was a closet racist up until 2009 (I've no idea whether he'd been 'outed' by previous incidents) then it's quite possible that he could have been England captain up until then.

 

[User removed 4]

Bloody hell, I think you're pinning a hell of a lot of blame on an inexperienced coach that was at best 3rd-in-command.

You can make the case that Sol was discriminated against, that might well be true. But I think, anecdotally at least, we've come to understand that Sol Campbell was quite an introverted character, not vocal and not particularly good with people. Is it therefore that surprising that he's struggled to get a full time coaching role?

One stat that I'd love to see (but which I think is impossible to collect) is the percentage of qualified white coaches that are employment versus the percentage of equivalently qualified black coaches that are employed - I think that would give a decent indication of whether there was discrimination going on. I remember looking at the number of british coaches taking the Pro qualification the last time we had this discussion on NSC, and there were only a very small number of black coaches taking the qualification. I think that once this is addressed, and you have a representative number of black coaches but still few in top jobs, we could look at bringing in a Rooney rule equivalent. But at the moment I'm not convinced that it's a problem of lack of demand so much as lack of supply (of black coaches).





What point are you trying to make? That is appears that Ledley King is a racist? That if King was England captain when that happened in 2009 he might have had the captaincy taken away from him? Both of those are probably true. As far as I can see neither Pav nor Dandyman have condoned his views. If he was a closet racist up until 2009 (I've no idea whether he'd been 'outed' by previous incidents) then it's quite possible that he could have been England captain up until then.

What point am I trying to make ?? That dandyman is a hypocrite of the worst kind , he has consistently castigated John Terry for his alleged racism , lack of role model qualities etc , yet endorses the assertion that Ledley King wouldve been England captain many times but for his injuries , the same Ledley King who was seen drunkenly urinating in a doorway before calling a doorman a paki *******. Hmmm, wonder why King isnt vilified by NSC's self appointed arbiters of whether a player has the qualities to be England captain ??

 

[Pavilionaire]

Just in case you missed it i'll ask you again, do you still think the same after reading these articles ?
http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/new...ed-and-hit-me-claims-victim-article30032.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/englands-ledley-king-arrested-over-assault-1682413.html

Yes, I do think he would have captained England more than 7 times, even with that incident. John Terry captained England after a few tasty nightclub incidents and more besides, Steven Gerrard was involved in a nightclub brawl in 2009 and has been done for drink-driving yet still wears the armband.

You could argue that being involved in a nightclub brawl would appear to be a pre-requisite for being England captain.