Socio-Political question

[NMH]

The problem with any associated with any party or group is that you are subscribing to a mass when you are an individual. Thereby you become subject to generalisation by your own choice - and also subect to being aligned with every action/announcement by the group.

I might vote but only to vote AGAINST parties I firmly disagree with or who cannot represent me in most things, rather than to assume that the party I'd vote FOR is going to represent me in everything I want them to.

The reaching for generalisations that describe a general 'leaning' is usually a need to rail against, than a claim to a leaning. It runs through humanity to attack a group, all the while hurting undeserving individuals under some supposed social, political or religious cause.

It's all bollocks and I'd rather opt out of all groups. I'm not "happy to be stuck with you" or anyone else.

Apart from The ALBION. :falmerspi

 

[The Large One]

Which is why, in a nutshell, so few of us connect with politicians. Admittedly no-one got people into politics more than Thatcher, but that was mainly to rally against her. Since then, the political debates have become sanitised and people don't care enough about it any more. It's no wonder the number at the polling stations continue to drop.

The point is, they still haven't learned. Have a face to face conversation with an MP, and by and large you find you are having a conversation with a prat.

 

[Southover Street Seagull]

Point is, the next general election is not going to be fought on left or right wing politics, but on which personalities you can trust more than others, which is a total tragedy. That's not politics, that's cabaret. [/B][/QUOTE]

Agree with you I'm afraid. This country is becomng like the US where politics are concerned.

 

[looney]

In Britain, the 'right' has a modern day icon to whom they can turn for their inspiration and hope - Margaret Thatcher. The Conservative Party (including elements of the leadership team) are still looking over their shoulders at her influence on the party, and have yet to really shake her off. If anything, she has shaken them off - some of her supporters abandoned the party in favour of UKIP and The Referendum Party.

If you want a good definition of lefty judgeing by this thread then its the ability to mis represent rightwing/conservative beleifs, philosophy and policy.

Your prime example posted above. Margeret thatcher did not develope a philosophy of "Thatcherism". That was the label applied to her policies which stemmed mainly from Hayek but also Friedman in the early 80's. To an extent they have also been adopted by labour.

Hence their is no need to "shake of" thatcher than there is a need to shake of any other leader.

Conservative do not feel the need to apologise for thatcher, they are proud of her. They are also aware she is history and are moving on looking for new directions. Not out of abject political and economic failure like Labour but the general need for renewal and adaption in a non static progressive world.

Oh and your last sentence is quite funny as you earlier said thatcher was pro EU as she signed Maastrict.

 

[chip]

Largely correct.



To be honest, I am not sure I can. I used the term 'lefties' on myself because many of the values I believe in largely sit comfortably with so-called left-wing party political views. However, these views bear little resemblance to The Boss' quite amusing but largely irrelevant list of the 1980s' Sun newspaper-style views on left-wing beliefs.

In Britain, the 'right' has a modern day icon to whom they can turn for their inspiration and hope - Margaret Thatcher. The Conservative Party (including elements of the leadership team) are still looking over their shoulders at her influence on the party, and have yet to really shake her off. If anything, she has shaken them off - some of her supporters abandoned the party in favour of UKIP and The Referendum Party.

The 'left' in this country doesn't have an equivalent icon. And therein lies the rub. Because modern day politics covers such a vast range of issues, many don't generally believe in left or right-wing politics. Therefore, when Labour won a crushing victory in 1997, it was on a negative ticket. It wasn't Britain s much embracing centre-left politics as turning its back on the right, or 'traditional' politics. Labour certainly did not bring in left-wing politics in sense we understand it. So why use the phrase 'lefty'? It appears to have little value in modern day politics.

Most of society has progressed beyond party politics; the only people that haven't are politicians - Career Politicians. This kind of bears out your point on left and right being a state of mind, and I don't think people choose their own labels deliberately.

For instance, don't you tend to find listening to someone who is a very good political debator - say a retired cabinet minister, even with a different political perspective to one's own - far more interesting than a party politician whose strings are being pulled by the party mechanism and glorified ad men (spin doctors) who tell them what to say?

Point is, the next general election is not going to be fought on left or right wing politics, but on which personalities you can trust more than others, which is a total tragedy. That's not politics, that's cabaret.

Yes, I would agree with that entirely and would put myself in the category that feels disenfranchised although I would not describe myself as left wing. I haven't voted since before John Major became leader of the conservatives.

I find that there is little of substance in anything that any politician says nowadays. Most policy is a fait accompli that seems to have been derived from some unknown source. There is no passion and nothing to respect about nearly all of the current lot. There also seems to be little intelligence or logic in their behaviour and no debate of real issues unless it comes from small, single(ish) issue parties such as the greens, UKIP, BNP or the odd independant. The main parties treat them all like lunatics unless they can steal a sanitized version of their policies.

I also agree with NMH and Gwylan. I wouldn't want to be associated with any particular group and all its ideals either. However, I'm human and "stamp collecting" and taxonomy are a natural human activity and hence I use terms like lefty as both an adjective and collective noun.

 

[The Large One]

Oh and your last sentence is quite funny as you earlier said thatcher was pro EU as she signed Maastrict.

I never said she did. Someone else did, and I knew that was wrong. I just didn't bother to correct it. John Major signed it in 1992, and it was ratified in Westminster the following year.

I said she didn't go for civil servants or the BBC.

 

[The Large One]

Conservative do not feel the need to apologise for thatcher, they are proud of her. They are also aware she is history and are moving on looking for new directions. Not out of abject political and economic failure like Labour but the general need for renewal and adaption in a non static progressive world.

Conservatives will not feel they need to apologise for her, especially if they revered her, but they may do if they want to attract new voters. (Unfortunately, we're then down the line of Spin Doctor presentation to convince them).

Point is, it has taken to election of David Cameron - a full 15 years after Thatcher's exit - to make the Tories feel they need to move on.

 

[looney]

I honestly dont get why you think the tories are out of office for either Thatcher or not changing policies.

Tories were booted out cos of sleeze, the ERM debacle and 17 years is way to long for any party.

2 of those reasons are why labour are on the slide. It really isn't the tories who are obsessed with Thatcher its labour/the left.

 

[bhaexpress]

I honestly dont get why you think the tories are out of office for either Thatcher or not changing policies.

Tories were booted out cos of sleeze, the ERM debacle and 17 years is way to long for any party.

2 of those reasons are why labour are on the slide. It really isn't the tories who are obsessed with Thatcher its labour/the left.

I know you're somewhere to the right of Attilla the Hun but how in your wildest dreams can you say that Labour are the left ? The reason the Tories are out of office is that they are even more feeble than Labour.

 

[m20gull]

Point is, it has taken to election of David Cameron - a full 15 years after Thatcher's exit - to make the Tories feel they need to move on.

About as long as it took Labour.

 

[The Large One]

About as long as it took Labour.

Closer to about six.

1979 the lost power, by the mid-eghities Kinnock was trying to reform. John Smith took that mantle on in 1992, and continued by Blair from 1994.