[Football] So we're stuck with a failed Middlesbrough manager until Dec 2024.............

[herecomesaregular]

As a man-manager and getting players from rival clubs to gel and bond, he's excellent.

And he's deservedly kept his job on England's performances in major tournaments. Results-business and all that.

That said, he's not a great tactician and is naturally defensively-minded. Our attacking midfield riches aren't being fully utilised.

He's not the first though to struggle with that - England's 'Golden Generation' were hindered by an inflexible 442 system.

The video's 4 years old now, but all England fans don't want to see history repeated in years to come.

Some things have changed for better, especially with team spirit and young players coming through, but some concerns remain.

Agree with that. Southgate has got a lot right but he should acknowledge his shortcomings around in-game tactics and get someone into his team that has the skills he's missing in this area.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Sol Campbell had an injury prone season before Euro 96 and that is why he only made one subs appearance. Think you are trying to make something out of nothing here. He played Vince Hilaire in his team of the 80s. Hope you have something a bit more to back up your rather negative implications?

I am not trying to make anything. It was just an observation, but from it (and other myriad data) I infer that black players were under-represented back then. The numbers prove it. Look at the recent England squad for comparison.



That said, it was simply the way it was at the time.

As you say, among the multitude of South London, Venables was able to see his way clear to select Hillaire. I recall watching us play at Shitehole Park back in the Hillaire days. Every time he got the ball the Brighton fans booed him. And every time Chris Ramsey got the ball the Palace fans booed him. We thought this was all highly amusing (I confess joining in with the booing).

Somewhere between then and now things have changed. When Venables was in charge of England we were only half way there, if that. The implications if there are any are positive, not negative. Things have improved. That's the only point I wanted to make, really

 

[Klaas]

Nobody is ever going to agree 100% with his selections, least of all me. There's flawed logic many a time, and he's been caught like a rabbit in the headlights both times in the WCSF and the ECF, failing to react or do anything to turn the tide from a position of early superiority.

But he's taken us deep in both tournaments, which we've qualified comfortably for as well as the upcoming one. There's a calmness and harmony around the squad that he's engendered. The players like and respect him, and he seems to have made playing for England far less of a chore than it seemed to be under his predecessors. In fact, the likes of Kane and Maguire seem to revel in the break from club football it gives them.

I'm happy he's staying on, he seems well cut out for it. To anyone grizzling - who would YOU rather have ?

I got tired of investing myself in the fortunes of England a while back, one factor being the entitlement of fans. I now just tune in to the tournaments and, was it me, or didn't we just do the semis and final of the two major competitions?? Boggles my brain that people still moan about the manager.

 

[herecomesaregular]

I am not trying to make anything. It was just an observation, but from it (and other myriad data) I infer that black players were under-represented back then. The numbers prove it. Look at the recent England squad for comparison.

View attachment 142344

That said, it was simply the way it was at the time.

As you say, among the multitude of South London, Venables was able to see his way clear to select Hillaire. I recall watching us play at Shitehole Park back in the Hillaire days. Every time he got the ball the Brighton fans booed him. And every time Chris Ramsey got the ball the Palace fans booed him. We thought this was all highly amusing (I confess joining in with the booing).

Somewhere between then and now things have changed. When Venables was in charge of England we were only half way there, if that. The implications if there are any are positive, not negative. Things have improved. That's the only point I wanted to make, really

I dunno, saying "he wasn't keen on black players" implies something more than you are now saying, imo.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I dunno, saying "he wasn't keen on black players" implies something more than you are now saying, imo.

Perhaps it does. But I always suspected it was the FA rather than Venables. Since you seem to want to make more out of this than I do, I quick search on t'internet brings up this, which resonates with my recollections at the time:

https://www.naijiant.com/sports/who-left-the-blacks-out/

What some of us suspected a long time ago has been revealed in a new book about racism in English football, “Pitch Black” by Emy Onuora.

It claims that former England manager Graham Taylor, who was in charge from 1990 to 1993, told Richie Moran, an anti-racism activist and ex player, that two English FA “suits” tried to lean on him to limit the number of black players he picked for the national team.

There is no suggestion that Taylor accepted the request. And there is nothing in Taylor’s career to indicate he had a problem fielding black players. When he managed Watford in the 1980s he helped develop the career of possibly the most talented English player of all time Jamaican-born John Barnes, as well as Luther Blissett.

On a few occasions in the late 1980s, especially under Bobby Robson, England teams had up to five or six black players – Barnes, Blisset, Mark Chamberlain (father of Arsenal’s Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain), Ricky Hill, Brian Stein, and so on. This was pretty much unheard of before then and may have been what prompted the unnamed FA officials to intervene and ask for their England to be kept white.

The first black player to represent England was Viv Anderson in 1978. This was at a time black players were subjected to horrendous racial abuse from the terraces, from fellow players, and even from their teammates during training. Anderson’s debut for England and the trickle of black players that followed into the national team were not accepted without resistance from the racists.

Barnes claimed that after scoring what was seen as the best goal ever by an England player in a 2-1 defeat of Brazil in the Maracana Stadium, on the flight back to England, some English fans kept taunting him with chants suggesting the score was 1-1 because they didn’t recognise a goal for England by a black player.

Terry Venables replaced Taylor as England manager and I do not recall a time when he fielded more than one black player in any England team. It always seemed like if Paul Ince was playing, Ian Wright would be out, if Les Ferdinand was in, Ince would be out and so on. I suspected there was some kind of quota at the time, but didn’t have the evidence to support this suspicion.

 

[Taybha]

Loser.

 

[Motogull]

We'll win nothing with him at the wheel. He can't get the best of his players. What a waste.

 

[portlock seagull]

I got tired of investing myself in the fortunes of England a while back, one factor being the entitlement of fans. I now just tune in to the tournaments and, was it me, or didn't we just do the semis and final of the two major competitions?? Boggles my brain that people still moan about the manager.

This with Bells on! Done better than any England Manager since Sir Alf so throughly deserves an extension. If we win something people will still moan. After all, some still disputing the way England won in 66, it’s as if we didn’t score a 4th never mind the 3rd! Also, who would replace him? I don’t see any better candidates that are realistic options.

 

[Eeyore]

Perhaps it does. But I always suspected it was the FA rather than Venables. Since you seem to want to make more out of this than I do, I quick search on t'internet brings up this, which resonates with my recollections at the time:

https://www.naijiant.com/sports/who-left-the-blacks-out/

What some of us suspected a long time ago has been revealed in a new book about racism in English football, “Pitch Black” by Emy Onuora.

It claims that former England manager Graham Taylor, who was in charge from 1990 to 1993, told Richie Moran, an anti-racism activist and ex player, that two English FA “suits” tried to lean on him to limit the number of black players he picked for the national team.

There is no suggestion that Taylor accepted the request. And there is nothing in Taylor’s career to indicate he had a problem fielding black players. When he managed Watford in the 1980s he helped develop the career of possibly the most talented English player of all time Jamaican-born John Barnes, as well as Luther Blissett.

On a few occasions in the late 1980s, especially under Bobby Robson, England teams had up to five or six black players – Barnes, Blisset, Mark Chamberlain (father of Arsenal’s Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain), Ricky Hill, Brian Stein, and so on. This was pretty much unheard of before then and may have been what prompted the unnamed FA officials to intervene and ask for their England to be kept white.

The first black player to represent England was Viv Anderson in 1978. This was at a time black players were subjected to horrendous racial abuse from the terraces, from fellow players, and even from their teammates during training. Anderson’s debut for England and the trickle of black players that followed into the national team were not accepted without resistance from the racists.

Barnes claimed that after scoring what was seen as the best goal ever by an England player in a 2-1 defeat of Brazil in the Maracana Stadium, on the flight back to England, some English fans kept taunting him with chants suggesting the score was 1-1 because they didn’t recognise a goal for England by a black player.

Terry Venables replaced Taylor as England manager and I do not recall a time when he fielded more than one black player in any England team. It always seemed like if Paul Ince was playing, Ian Wright would be out, if Les Ferdinand was in, Ince would be out and so on. I suspected there was some kind of quota at the time, but didn’t have the evidence to support this suspicion.

It's a bit unfortunate that piece. Looking back at the squads (80s v 90s) there were more in the 90s. Of the 25-30 players used each year in the 90s we see an average of 5 black players. It increases as time goes on. In 1988, a Euros year, we see five from 35.In 1986, a World Cup year, we see three. Stein and Hill hardly played for England.

I'm a bit of an England stats nerd.

My main point is to defend from false accusation. The issue of general racism in football at that time is irrefutable.

 

[HastingsSeagull]

He's been lucky with group and knock out draws but provern to loose to any decent team at any stage. We didn't have (much) better options 5 years ago but currently there's one name who is, so I'm very glad our mediocre yes man has had his contract extended.

 

[Mr Putdown]

He's been lucky with group and knock out draws but provern to loose to any decent team at any stage.

I’m not sure how you are defining a decent team.

Germany? Lost his first game against them, drew the second and won the third.

Spain? Drew his first game, lost his second and won the third.

Italy? Drew both games against them.

Denmark? Draw, draw, lost, won.

I guess Belgium must be the only decent team England have played whilst managed by Southgate.