[Albion] So, was it a red?

[British Bulldog]

Yellow all day long, it was only Ronaldo getting in the refs face that influenced Var.

 

[peterward]

I think that's where I am. Dunk stopped a clear 1-on-1 goalscoring opportunity, as I don't believe Webster would have been able to get a challenge in.

However it was marginal enough that for me, with a yellow given on the field, VAR prompting that to be bumped up to a red feels a bit rough.

However, it all comes down to Dunk being caught in possession which was neither the ref's nor the VAR ref's fault. We played a very risky game in the first half, and then into the second in terms of allowing United's frontline to be on top of us before we released the ball. Both Sanchez and our defenders did this repeatedly to the point I can only assume it was an intentional tactic. Most of the time we got by that press and advanced, very quickly, into the United half and found ourselves in a good attacking position.

If you live by the sword, you die by the sword...

 

[Jeremiah]

Yellow all day long, it was only Ronaldo getting in the refs face that influenced Var.

Yep, not sure I can remember another incident where a player gets tugged back and another defender is clearly 5 yards goalside of the incident and sweeping across and a red is given.

 

[Uter]

I have changed my mind on this.

At first I thought there was no way you could be sure whether Webster or Elanga would get to the ball first, but having watched it a few times it takes Webster around 1.6-1.8 seconds to get to the ball from almost a standing start. I don't think he could have got there much faster. Elanga only had to run another 10 yards to get to the ball and was going a fair pace when Dunk stopped him. I think he'd have got to the ball well before Webster and have gotten a clear shot away.

 

[Hastings gull]

I have changed my mind on this.

At first I thought there was no way you could be sure whether Webster or Elanga would get to the ball first, but having watched it a few times it takes Webster around 1.6-1.8 seconds to get to the ball from almost a standing start. I don't think he could have got there much faster. Elanga only had to run another 10 yards to get to the ball and was going a fair pace when Dunk stopped him. I think he'd have got to the ball well before Webster and have gotten a clear shot away.

I think on balance you may well be right, but this is not the point here (you don't say it is, I fully realise) -the ref as well as yourself and many others came up with a yellow having seen the incident, where Webby was lurking, and after reflection he gave a red. Therefore it was not a clear and obvious error and VAR should not have got involved, which, as I understand it, is their remit.

 

[origigull]

I have changed my mind on this.

At first I thought there was no way you could be sure whether Webster or Elanga would get to the ball first, but having watched it a few times it takes Webster around 1.6-1.8 seconds to get to the ball from almost a standing start. I don't think he could have got there much faster. Elanga only had to run another 10 yards to get to the ball and was going a fair pace when Dunk stopped him. I think he'd have got to the ball well before Webster and have gotten a clear shot away.

I think that the ManU player Elanga kicks the ball from Dunk rather hard and its travelling at a rate of knots so its seems that Webbo could have got there to tackle/clear the ball which makes this incident 50/50. So its not in my mind a clear and obvious error. And as another poster says Dunk wasn't technically the last man. All ifs and buts though.

 

[Yoda]

I have changed my mind on this.

At first I thought there was no way you could be sure whether Webster or Elanga would get to the ball first, but having watched it a few times it takes Webster around 1.6-1.8 seconds to get to the ball from almost a standing start. I don't think he could have got there much faster. Elanga only had to run another 10 yards to get to the ball and was going a fair pace when Dunk stopped him. I think he'd have got to the ball well before Webster and have gotten a clear shot away.

Whilst you may be correct on this if Elanga had made a clean tackle and continued at pace, his body position might suggest otherwise.

The first picture is from when he nicks the ball from Dunk and the second is from where Dunk makes contact with his leg and changed the arm position from a block to a grab and pull. (Note, he has not started to pull back yet, that comes a split second later)




His momentum has completely shifted with his front foot planted flat and is already leaning back. This would in turn effect how quickly he would've got to the ball.

 

[Creaky]

Yellow all day long, it was only Ronaldo getting in the refs face that influenced Var.

No one seems to mention our players in the “refs face”

All players reacting like this should receive yellow cards - just as they would in rugby league.

 

[Guy Fawkes]

Looking at the replay, it's not a 100% foul by Dunk anyway. Elanga feels the arm on him and falls over.

Webster is definitely close enough for there to be huge doubt that he was free on goal.

Agree with this.

The thing that annoyed me most about it was that the referee was only shown one view of the incident, the shot from the half way line which didn't show the incident that clearly in terms of what contact there was (and made it look more like Dunk was holding him and pulled him to the ground, which he didn't. Had the ref been shown the better view, it would have shown very little in the incident and therefore not worthy of a red. In the camera view they showed the ref, you could just about see the arm of Webster on the edge of the screen, but wouldn't have been able to show if Webster was likely to be able to intercept the Utd player or not, hence why another angle should also have been used.

We've seen plenty of incidents down the years where one camera view makes it look far worse a challenge (or whatever was being reviewed) and another shows there was very little in it. This is why to me, several angles should be shown to the ref to help them decide when they use the monitors pitch side.

To me the incident looked like Dunk's first touch knocked it slightly away from him and their player was already anticipating this and tried to nip in and steal it, and as the Utd player went for it the 2 players made contact with each other - you could argue that Dunk was the one in control so the Utd player was the one who instigated the contact with Dunk rather than Dunk trying to foul the opposition player to stop him getting away and through on goal but obviously the officials interpreted it as Dunk fouling their player to stop him breaking

 

[Guy Fawkes]

Whilst you may be correct on this if Elanga had made a clean tackle and continued at pace, his body position might suggest otherwise.

The first picture is from when he nicks the ball from Dunk and the second is from where Dunk makes contact with his leg and changed the arm position from a block to a grab and pull. (Note, he has not started to pull back yet, that comes a split second later)

View attachment 145209
View attachment 145210

His momentum has completely shifted with his front foot planted flat and is already leaning back. This would in turn effect how quickly he would've got to the ball.

Isn't that simply because their player is stretching to try to get his toe to it in front of Lewis as that was the only way he could make contact with it first, so of course his body shape would be leaning back and his front foot ending up flat on the ground with little forward momentum at that moment (certainly not a full sprint)

Also isn't Dunk's arm position is in an area that normally / often occurs when a player with the ball tries to keep their space and shield the ball and therefore protect possession, as seen at almost every set piece, cross into the box, and far more challenges that occur anywhere on the pitch that don't result in a foul, let alone a booking, or a red card

Also take into account what has been allowed in terms of 'legal' contact this season, for example the number of times defenders have been shoved in the box (in Maupay's case, shoved over vs Burnley for their goal) and it wasn't deemed a foul

 

[monty uk]

Deleted.


• denying a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity to an opponent whose
overall movement is towards the offender’s goal by an offence punishable by
a free kick

This law is far too subjective. What does it mean by an 'obvious goal-scoring chance'? Webster was behind the ball and could conceivably have run into Elanga's path before he reached the penalty area if Dunk had not touched Elanga. Had it been Lamptey we all know that he could have got there and had a cup of tea before Elanga arrived.

Surely a goal-scoring chance is not just being in a position to shoot; that could occur anywhere on the pitch. It must mean that the attacker is the closest player to the goal line and has possession of the ball when fouled from behind.

In a similar way to the way the offside line clarifies that law. Even though an attacking player can be ruled onside by a defender on the far side of the pitch who doesn't have a snowball in hell's chance of reaching the attacker.

Definitely not a red. The match and our chance of a result were ruined and we lose Dunk for important games. All due to poor refereeing. Almost as bad as the Lee Mason fiasco last season.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

This law is far too subjective. What does it mean by an 'obvious goal-scoring chance'? Webster was behind the ball and could conceivably have run into Elanga's path before he reached the penalty area if Dunk had not touched Elanga. Had it been Lamptey we all know that he could have got there and had a cup of tea before Elanga arrived.

Surely a goal-scoring chance is not just being in a position to shoot; that could occur anywhere on the pitch. It must mean that the attacker is the closest player to the goal line and has possession of the ball when fouled from behind.

In a similar way to the way the offside line clarifies that law. Even though an attacking player can be ruled onside by a defender on the far side of the pitch who doesn't have a snowball in hell's chance of reaching the attacker.

Definitely not a red. The match and our chance of a result were ruined and we lose Dunk for important games. All due to poor refereeing. Almost as bad as the Lee Mason fiasco last season.

I totally agree it’s subjective.

As for “ we lose Dunk for important games.” - he only misses the Burnley game and this is a perfect game for Duffy imho. Let’s revisit this when the Webster, Duffy, Veltman defence has kept a clean sheet and bullied their lumps up front. 3-0, you read it here first.

 

[banjo]

If it had been Slabhead he’d have got a medal.

 

[severnside gull]

Debatable call and as such very harsh.
50:50 whether Webster would have got across had the player continued forward and if he’d elected to shoot early the odds statistically were massively against him scoring.

 

[nickjhs]

Webster is definitely close enough for there to be huge doubt that he was free on goal.

This

 

[perseus]

A real 50:50 call on whether Webster would’ve got there first.

So no, with blue tinted specs.

(But I wish Dunk had just cleared it upfield a second earlier. Such a dangerous place when being pressed. Half asleep).

If it was Ronaldo that was fouled it would have been a goalscoring opportunity, Elanga not so, Moder, Gross not so.