[Albion] So after all the threads, the should RDZ have gone ? Poll

[Bold Seagull]

And the quality to set up really good chances improves enormously the chances of us finishing them (even better if your creative players can finish too).

First game of the season against Luton starting line up:

Steele; Milner, Van Hecke, Dunk, Estupinian; Gross, Dahoud; March, Pedro, Mitoma; Welbeck. (against Wolves in the first away, Enciso came in for Pedro, Webster played CB and Gilmouir started in the middle).

We scored 4 in both those games.

Starting line up yesterday:

Steele; Moder, Webster, Igor, Barco; Baleba, Gross; Adingra, Lallana, Pedro; Welbeck.

No goals. Plenty of chances. No 10, full backs and wingers the difference. And it was cover in those areas RDZ wanted IIRC.

Agree with you, I think people hang on the manager being responsible for everything, but there is always a point their influence ends and the quality you have out on the pitch starts.

My overall take is we’ve had 2 very good managers over a 5 year period. Feeling more confident this time because we’ve already shown the agility to transition from one similar manager to the next. We have a very clear criteria for what we need.

Not felt sad over RDZ going, feel pretty optimistic going forward. C’est La ve.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I've read this sort of thing a lot recently, so it's not just your post or you I'm picking up here, but this doesn't half get on my tits.

De Zerbi was hired because he had a certain style. Bloom has always wanted the men's first team to 'play football' for two reasons. Firstly so that there is a clear 'club identity' style in the lower age groups. This isn't rocket science, Barca and Ajax have done it successfully. Secondly, because good technical players, as opposed to good physical players, go for more money in transfers (this is also why we're hoarding HGPs and goalkeepers, but I digress).

Additionally, you need other types of player to switch to a different style. Everton play how they do because they have pace out wide and a centre forward who, at his best and fittest, can head it in. Sitting back and hitting on the counter at pace make a lot of sense when you have those players. It makes zero sense with a striker who's not that great in the air and players with the pace of Lallana, Gross, Milner, Buonanotte and even Gilmour. We can't just go all pragmatic. That's actually the issue with our recruitment. At its best it equips coaches like De Zerbi with Mitomas and Joao Pedros and coaches like Potter with Caicedos, Bissoumas and Mwepus. At its worse it gives coaches like Hughton players like Locadia and Jahanbaksh.

But if your Caicedos and Bissoumas are sold, your Mitomas and Marches injured, your Gross and Joao Pedros knackered then you're left with a second rate team of technical players with not much pace who are still learning an intricate tactical set up.

Beyond that, he has changed tactics in the last few games. We played totally differently against Man U than we did against Newcastle and Villa. We just didn't take those first half chances.

I was listening to the commentary on the way back from the New Forest yesterday, and your last two sentences were exactly what Warren was saying. I looked at the stats and we had loads of shots but Onana was making some good saves.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Head says yes as I trust TB, heart says No.

That's where I am, at the moment.

 

[Kosh]

My yes vote really relates to the point of impasse… sadly for all parties, and more pertinently for Roberto and his happiness vs A game equation - he had to go, he told us so at the fans forum.

The model will not be broken, wrongly or rightly … Roberto bought his ticket, he knew the risks… I say let him go.

Beyond that, at times post Europa and Jan, I felt Roberto made odd selections, sometimes I had a slight lingering suspicion deliberately so… you know, to plead his case, to highlight the lack of depth and used young players as pawns.

The FA cup (throw away) vs Wolves… selecting Peupion to start who’d recently returned from an abortive league 2 loan… seriously, … anyone can see he’s miles off in terms of physicality… hauled off H/T … point made? what has that done for his development Very little… but it did highlight our shortcomings as a squad… like I say, point made.

If I’m right or even half right, that’s unforgivable… if I’m wrong, so be it… but either way, that was just plain odd… anyone but a relatively untested kid in a game we could have won…

Demeanour, the same negative comments to the press.. the constant injury name dropping - injuries caused in part by his own highly intensive training schedule… and the results and ‘performances’ that often followed… all of it left a bad taste and an odd vibe…

Yes, he had to go… mutually so and fair enough… but he was in part, architect of his own inglorious downfall.

I’m sure he’ll be back -and I’m sure he’ll have success, but he’ll need a truck load of cash to deliver his disposition over more than 1 season.

 

[tedebear]

I've read this sort of thing a lot recently, so it's not just your post or you I'm picking up here, but this doesn't half get on my tits.

De Zerbi was hired because he had a certain style. Bloom has always wanted the men's first team to 'play football' for two reasons. Firstly so that there is a clear 'club identity' style in the lower age groups. This isn't rocket science, Barca and Ajax have done it successfully. Secondly, because good technical players, as opposed to good physical players, go for more money in transfers (this is also why we're hoarding HGPs and goalkeepers, but I digress).

Additionally, you need other types of player to switch to a different style. Everton play how they do because they have pace out wide and a centre forward who, at his best and fittest, can head it in. Sitting back and hitting on the counter at pace make a lot of sense when you have those players. It makes zero sense with a striker who's not that great in the air and players with the pace of Lallana, Gross, Milner, Buonanotte and even Gilmour. We can't just go all pragmatic. That's actually the issue with our recruitment. At its best it equips coaches like De Zerbi with Mitomas and Joao Pedros and coaches like Potter with Caicedos, Bissoumas and Mwepus. At its worse it gives coaches like Hughton players like Locadia and Jahanbaksh.

But if your Caicedos and Bissoumas are sold, your Mitomas and Marches injured, your Gross and Joao Pedros knackered then you're left with a second rate team of technical players with not much pace who are still learning an intricate tactical set up.

Beyond that, he has changed tactics in the last few games. We played totally differently against Man U than we did against Newcastle and Villa. We just didn't take those first half chances.

Wow, high horse there. Of course he was hired becuase of his style and he fit the model, never said he wasn't. Somewhere along the line he didn't like the model or wanted it changed. You can predict what choices Bloom and Barber then had.

You don't need different players to switch tactic, thats bollocks, you need to change tactics to play to the skills of the squad you have. I'm not talking about style whatsoever, whatever the dickens you mean by that. We play differently against different opposition as thats the nature of the beast. One of our tactics (our main one it seems), is playing deep in their third, passing back to the keeper with our backs to the goal, no matter who is on the pitch. All the opposition need to do is wait for us to invariably make a passing error, which we do, and they capitalise. Ten Hag was pushing them up all afternoon, he saw it and they didn't really have to play the game just wait for us to stuff up, which we did. Given we sit behind RDZ, and he keeps directing and gesticulating that play, its worrying to watch. Of course the injuries and sales hurt this year, but I didn't see a manager playing to the strengths of the squad he had, just hammering away at a play which massively exposed the risks we already have.

Sounds like you disagree with the model, but I suspect it will be a long time coming before it changes.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Wow, high horse there. Of course he was hired becuase of his style and he fit the model, never said he wasn't. Somewhere along the line he didn't like the model or wanted it changed. You can predict what choices Bloom and Barber then had.

You don't need different players to switch tactic, thats bollocks, you need to change tactics to play to the skills of the squad you have. I'm not talking about style whatsoever, whatever the dickens you mean by that. We play differently against different opposition as thats the nature of the beast. One of our tactics (our main one it seems), is playing deep in their third, passing back to the keeper with our backs to the goal, no matter who is on the pitch. All the opposition need to do is wait for us to invariably make a passing error, which we do, and they capitalise. Ten Hag was pushing them up all afternoon, he saw it and they didn't really have to play the game just wait for us to stuff up, which we did. Given we sit behind RDZ, and he keeps directing and gesticulating that play, its worrying to watch. Of course the injuries and sales hurt this year, but I didn't see a manager playing to the strengths of the squad he had, just hammering away at a play which massively exposed the risks we already have.

Sounds like you disagree with the model, but I suspect it will be a long time coming before it changes.

On the contrary I agree strongly with the model in terms of 'one club' and producing good technical players. It makes perfect sense. Playing Dyche ball with those players, however, makes no sense at all. That was literally my point.

I suspect you weren't at Newcastle?

 

[London Irish]

No, we definitely could have got another year or two out of him by not running down the squad so drastically. The next guy has a tough job

 

[philgull25]

Best manager we’ve ever had. Best manager we ever will have. We should have made it work.

He could have taken us places. Hard to see Kieran McKenna or whoever it is that we get in from the Championship or Albanian Division 4 etc, to be his successor will do the same.

 

[Zeberdi]

We won’t get a more gifted or more ambitious manager than De Zerbi. However, rather painfully, Roberto flayed us open and revealed the limitations of our relatively small Club in our trying for Europa campaigns and top 7 positions - he saw it was not going to happen with any kind of regularity without building a deeper and more technically skilled squad - The harsh reality is that we are a mid-table Club and while our business model keeps us alive, we keep having to make more and more money just to tread water.

I have lost faith in the trope that has been previously trotted out by Barber and TB for several years now, claiming ‘there is no ceiling’ for us. There is - and I think De Zerbi found out how low it is. That’s not PB or TB‘s fault and as RDZ often said, wryly and with a hint of passive aggression at times too, ‘We are Brighton’ and ‘this is Premier League’.

I’m sure by January, the Club and RDZ realised we were out of our depth and stretched too thin to make anything of the rest of the season and while both sides I’m sure, genuinely tried to see what the Club could afford going forward and how much it would cost to put a squad together that could meet RDZ’s targets (ie Europe + Cup finals) by this time next year, it was not enough to meet the needs of the coach.

That saddens me more than anything that letting RDZ go is an admission that this season we have hit our heads hard on that ceiling and I fear our next coach won’t even bother trying to punch a hole through it.

 

[Albion my Albion]

YES!

 

[nickjhs]

voted yes as i trust tony and therefore instinctively trust the decisions he makes.

only time will really tell though

THIS. After reading Andy Naylors assessment TB had no choice, well he did, break the business model and the bank to appease RDZ or send him on his way with thanks for a brilliant couple of seasons. What we'll never know is that had the injuries not been so widespread, had we not lost Solly and Mitoma for pretty much the whole season would we be in this position. I very much doubt it. We had a flyer of a start with the full squad, with pundits putting us up as Europa Cup winners. But this is where TB and RDZ clashed, unfortunately, RDZ was correct we didn't have the depth in the squad to allow for what happened, but TB was also correct RDZ's ambitions were not worth bankrupting the club over. Not to mention the couple of times TB seemingly gave in to RDZ (dahoud and Fati, and to a point Igor) they flopped. As RDZ said as a club we are so fortunate to have TB.

 

[OzMike]

Yes and he will never have Potter back.

 

[Weststander]

Obviously there were a few, maybe many, factors that contributed to the separation but a very reliable source tells me that his insider friend mentioned an impasse on what to do with Denis Undav. R de Z wanted a sale but Uncle Tony , armed with his 'statistics machine data', wants him back in the Amex fold for next season. So I assume if you could ask one question of all the potential new manager applicants it would be 'are you going to bring Denis under back to the Albion next season?' If they answer 'no', then they are not getting the job.

TNBA

TTF

The proof will be in the pudding. If Undav’s playing for Stuttgart next season, the sauce needs binning.

 

[dwayne]

We won’t get a more gifted or more ambitious manager than De Zerbi. However, rather painfully, Roberto flayed us open and revealed the limitations of our relatively small Club in our trying for Europa campaigns and top 7 positions - he saw it was not going to happen with any kind of regularity without building a deeper and more technically skilled squad - The harsh reality is that we are a mid-table Club and while our business model keeps us alive, we keep having to make more and more money just to tread water.

I have lost faith in the trope that has been previously trotted out by Barber and TB for several years now, claiming ‘there is no ceiling’ for us. There is - and I think De Zerbi found out how low it is. That’s not PB or TB‘s fault and as RDZ often said, wryly and with a hint of passive aggression at times too, ‘We are Brighton’ and ‘this is Premier League’.

I’m sure by January, the Club and RDZ realised we were out of our depth and stretched too thin to make anything of the rest of the season and while both sides I’m sure, genuinely tried to see what the Club could afford going forward and how much it would cost to put a squad together that could meet RDZ’s targets (ie Europe + Cup finals) by this time next year, it was not enough to meet the needs of the coach.

That saddens me more than anything that letting RDZ go is an admission that this season we have hit our heads hard on that ceiling and I fear our next coach won’t even bother trying to punch a hole through it.

Yawn. Let's see how De Zerbi does at his next club. Invariably it will end in tears within 2 years. Man doesn't have a plan B.[/QUOTE]

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

100% yes.

Roberto De Zerbi didn’t want to be here and Tony Bloom showed him the way out.

Roberto de Zerbi wanted to be here on HIS terms, which was never going to happen.

 

[Jim in the West]

We won’t get a more gifted or more ambitious manager than De Zerbi. However, rather painfully, Roberto flayed us open and revealed the limitations of our relatively small Club in our trying for Europa campaigns and top 7 positions - he saw it was not going to happen with any kind of regularity without building a deeper and more technically skilled squad - The harsh reality is that we are a mid-table Club and while our business model keeps us alive, we keep having to make more and more money just to tread water.

I have lost faith in the trope that has been previously trotted out by Barber and TB for several years now, claiming ‘there is no ceiling’ for us. There is - and I think De Zerbi found out how low it is. That’s not PB or TB‘s fault and as RDZ often said, wryly and with a hint of passive aggression at times too, ‘We are Brighton’ and ‘this is Premier League’.

I’m sure by January, the Club and RDZ realised we were out of our depth and stretched too thin to make anything of the rest of the season and while both sides I’m sure, genuinely tried to see what the Club could afford going forward and how much it would cost to put a squad together that could meet RDZ’s targets (ie Europe + Cup finals) by this time next year, it was not enough to meet the needs of the coach.

That saddens me more than anything that letting RDZ go is an admission that this season we have hit our heads hard on that ceiling and I fear our next coach won’t even bother trying to punch a hole through it.

The thing is - which mid-size (or even mega, fallen giant) has broken into the top 6 in the past decade or more?
Ok - we had Leicester….but that was a complete one-off, aided by lots of things going wrong at most of the “Big 6”.
Otherwise - it is virtually impossible. Villa have just got there…but they are a huge club anyway, with resources way above ours.
Despite the record profits last year (and no doubt this year), we’re a long way from being able to compete regularly at top 6 level. And as soon as you start spending big money on transfer fees (which also means wages) you undermine the whole model.
Whilst last year was a tantalising glimpse of what MIGHT be possible at some stage, I’m very glad we’re not ditching the model for RDZ….especially as, if we did so, he’d probably be off next year anyway.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

As much as I really like RDZ his passion and his approach, the last few months of football have been tough to watch. If RDZ is saying that recruitment was to blame for that, then he has an uphill battle as a manager. I didn't see any change in approach to counteract the appalling run, so I start to question if RDZ's model working and whether he himself could see a change of style was necessary or was he adamant he was right in plouging on with it? I'm starting to have my doubts. How much into next season would he have continued with tippy tappy football at the back, when our passing is atrocious and our backs are to the goal...How long could we have survived that? I do think managers need to have more than one approach they can turn to...I hadn't seen it yet from RDZ...so maybe this is the right thing...only time will tell...

He's a purist.
Ideally his tactic is to bait the press and pass around it.
If a team stand off but put press high, then have pace out wide and play teh ball over the top.
If the team sit back drive foward and have wingers take on their man and play back into a packed area.

The simple fact is that the problem isn't with his tactics, it's with the decision making of the players, now that we have lost March/Mitoma/Estupinan.
The "tippy tappy" football was the only option available , because we lacked options in wide positions, we also lacked pace, for a ball over the top.

For tippy tappy to work against packed defences, you need excellent decision making and execution.
With more experienced players, you get enough chances to win games.
With kids and journeymen, you probably don't.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

Roberto de Zerbi wanted to be here on HIS terms, which was never going to happen.

Even this is too simplistic.
De Zerbi is at the stage of his career, where he needs to build a team capable of challenging at the top end of the table in a top 5 league.

We can't commit the funds necessary to do that.