[Politics] Sir Keir Starmer’s route to Number 10

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

A state? Fascism wasn’t in just one country, and still isn’t, It hasn’t gone away.

Apparently* you can be a fascist without being a Nazi.

*according to the famous intellect and political philosopher, Paolo Di Canio.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Stop having a victim mentality. Nobody gets battered. You’ll get robust debates but not attacked.

Indeed. There are numerous tory-leaning posters with whom one can have a jolly good chat.

If, however you are 'tory till I die' then you may find you have little to contribute to any sociopolitical conversation on here, other that 'whatabout Jeremy Corbyn'.

 

[A1X]

Apparently* you can be a fascist without being a Nazi.

*according to the famous intellect and political philosopher, Paolo Di Canio.

I agree with Paolo on this, fascism and Nazism are not the same thing. Fascism is about high state interference in people’s lives, state control and heavy promotion of state institutions, religion and the military. Nazism adds a racial ideology to it which is not inherent in fascism.

 

[WATFORD zero]

I don't think there is any debate whatsoever that Starmer has now moved the Labour party very close to the center ground previously occupied by moderate Conservatives whilst the Tory party has gone way off to the extreme right under people like Johnson, Sunak, the ERG, Truss, Patel, Braverman, Kwarteng and the rest of the cabal.

Which can only lead me to the obvious conclusion that those still supporting them (who are often the most ardent in their 'centrist' claims) must have been extreme right wingers all along

 

[Super Steve Earle]

Stop having a victim mentality. Nobody gets battered. You’ll get robust debates but not attacked.

And there's the scathing attack without a moment's reflection.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

And there's the scathing attack without a moment's reflection.

Scathing attack?

Scathing - witheringly scornful.
Are you really withering because of a few words on the internet?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I agree with Paolo on this, fascism and Nazism are not the same thing. Fascism is about high state interference in people’s lives, state control and heavy promotion of state institutions, religion and the military. Nazism adds a racial ideology to it which is not inherent in fascism.

Well, he's wrong:

Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ FASH-iz-əm) is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement,[1][2][3] characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.

Paolo actually said he's a fascist, not a racist. Well, good for him. Presumably he grew up in a white area and never had the need to be racist. I have also heard right wing Italians claiming they are not opposed to homosexuality because there are no homosexuals in Italy.

Essentially anyone who constructs a society to benefit themselves and people like them at the absolute expense of everyone else, with perhaps some toleration of those who are not a threat and who might be useful, is a **** in my eyes. If they want to claim they are fascists but not racists then they are double-plus ****s in my eyes, wanting the be virtuous as well as ****s. Pathetic.

 

[Super Steve Earle]

Scathing attack?

Scathing - witheringly scornful.
Are you really withering because of a few words on the internet?

Oh leave it out. I tried to offer a reasonable opinion and you accused me of having a victim mentality. Hardly the reasonable debate that's apparently on offer on the matter. Now you're picking me up on word definitions? Let's leave it there eh?

 

[WATFORD zero]

Never hidden it. Never had a good reason to change or consider change till now and Labour has never resonated with me, my life, my work etc. Nor have Labour politicians. Not going to apologise for it. But a struggling Tory government gives Labour it's chance. It's up to them to present themselves as an attractive alternative, not just 'not the Tories'. Like many previous Tory voters considering their options, I'm not going to be a turkey voting for Christmas. Unfortunately, anyone suggesting a natural disposition to voting Tory on NSC usually gets battered, so they keep their heads down.

Stop having a victim mentality. Nobody gets battered. You’ll get robust debates but not attacked.

And there's the scathing attack without a moment's reflection.

A scathing attack. Really ?


Indeed

 

[Titanic]

Never hidden it. Never had a good reason to change or consider change till now and Labour has never resonated with me, my life, my work etc. Nor have Labour politicians. Not going to apologise for it. But a struggling Tory government gives Labour it's chance. It's up to them to present themselves as an attractive alternative, not just 'not the Tories'. Like many previous Tory voters considering their options, I'm not going to be a turkey voting for Christmas. Unfortunately, anyone suggesting a natural disposition to voting Tory on NSC usually gets battered, so they keep their heads down.

On this occasion 'not the Tories' will be plenty enough.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Oh leave it out. I tried to offer a reasonable opinion and you accused me of having a victim mentality. Hardly the reasonable debate that's apparently on offer on the matter. Now you're picking me up on word definitions? Let's leave it there eh?

Your words

Torrent of bile
Battered
Scathing
Accusations

Exaggerations don’t help your opinion, which was why I picked you up on it.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

On this occasion 'not the Tories' will be plenty enough.

I can see the Greens picking up more votes, but whether that will translate to seats is debatable. Funnily enough, the Green Party are more left wing than Labour, but many people just see them as environmentalists, which appeals to NIMBYs.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Never hidden it. Never had a good reason to change or consider change till now and Labour has never resonated with me, my life, my work etc. Nor have Labour politicians. Not going to apologise for it. But a struggling Tory government gives Labour it's chance. It's up to them to present themselves as an attractive alternative, not just 'not the Tories'. Like many previous Tory voters considering their options, I'm not going to be a turkey voting for Christmas. Unfortunately, anyone suggesting a natural disposition to voting Tory on NSC usually gets battered, so they keep their heads down.

I’d usually agree with this sentiment but the Tory party has been so bad, so brazenly corrupt, so incompetent and equally so self-serving there must be a sizable chunk of voters who will have been driven away and will vote for anything which isn’t the current chaos?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I don't think there is any debate whatsoever that Starmer has now moved the Labour party very close to the center ground previously occupied by moderate Conservatives whilst the Tory party has gone way off to the extreme right under people like the Sunak, the ERG, Truss, Patel, Braverman, Kwarteng and the rest of the cabal.

Which can only lead me to the obvious conclusion that those still supporting them (who are often the most ardent in their 'centrist' claims) must have been extreme right wingers all along

Perhaps. But there is a large cohort who 'always' vote tory without ever reflecting why. This is exactly the same for a large cohort of labour supporters. My mum was of the latter persuasion. She never discussed politics or ever expressed a view about sociopolitical issues unless pressed. I had no idea she always voted labour till I was in my 30s. I suppose being raised before any sort of social services and welfare existed, losing her dad when only a year old (hospital balls up) and subsequently living on the charity of relatives till freed by marriage may somewhat focus the mind. I am sure there are 'always-tory' voters who have equivalent intractable reasons.

The floating voters are the ones whose choices decide every general election. It is interesting to discuss politics with them. I would be surprised if there is a significant proportion of floating voter who have tied themselves to the tory mast, but we shall see. Special pleading is still in place. Around the Kent coast no doubt the tories will be campaigning about the Flood of Illegal Immigrants that will arrive if labour get in. In the London suburbs they will be campaigning against ULEZ, and will no doubt be bringing tales of a nationwide clamp down on white vans elsewhere in the UK. Meanwhile the Mail is vigorously campaigning already, with a recent headline (I spotted at the petrol station) about labour forcing parents to encourage their five year olds to become transgender. Not sure how much traction culture wars has with the floating voter, but it worked last time with the 'red wall' and Brexit, so we shall see what the shameless element in the tory party has up its sleeve.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Unfortunately, anyone suggesting a natural disposition to voting Tory on NSC usually gets battered, so they keep their heads down.

It’s interesting how previously out and proud vocal Tories are now acting. @Steve Foster has slinked off, @Titanic is being reasonable but otherwise keeping quiet and you’re making these accusations. It’s as though you have nothing to actually say anymore for the party you support.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I can see the Greens picking up more votes, but whether that will translate to seats is debatable. Funnily enough, the Green Party are more left wing than Labour, but many people just see them as environmentalists, which appeals to NIMBYs.

Greenery has always troubled me. It attracts people from both the extreme left and extreme right. While I see Sunak's rush to open up more North Sea oil fields as a gimmick at best, and an opportunity to find a new way to enrich his pals (Lady Mone will doubtless supply the derricks) at worst, the idea of just stopping oil can only be done in phases as we develop alternative technology. Some sort of middle way has to be best, but with a clear view of what success will look like, and the pathway trodden purposefully and not allowed to deviate to suit political expedience. Just starting oil, or just stopping it are equally daft.

 

[jordanseagull]

Well, he's wrong:

Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ FASH-iz-əm) is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement,[1][2][3] characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.

Paolo actually said he's a fascist, not a racist. Well, good for him. Presumably he grew up in a white area and never had the need to be racist. I have also heard right wing Italians claiming they are not opposed to homosexuality because there are no homosexuals in Italy.

Essentially anyone who constructs a society to benefit themselves and people like them at the absolute expense of everyone else, with perhaps some toleration of those who are not a threat and who might be useful, is a **** in my eyes. If they want to claim they are fascists but not racists then they are double-plus ****s in my eyes, wanting the be virtuous as well as ****s. Pathetic.

He’s really not wrong. Naziism was/is a form of fascism. Conflating the two as synonymous is unbelievably lazy, as are the idiots you see all over the cesspit of Twitter who use the phrase fascist 17 times before they’ve eaten their breakfast.

 

[jordanseagull]

A state? Fascism wasn’t in just one country, and still isn’t, It hasn’t gone away.

Agreed. What’s your point? We were discussing Naziism (and the extent to which we have Nazi elements in our government) not fascism, an umbrella term.

 

[Weststander]

Greenery has always troubled me. It attracts people from both the extreme left and extreme right. While I see Sunak's rush to open up more North Sea oil fields as a gimmick at best, and an opportunity to find a new way to enrich his pals (Lady Mone will doubtless supply the derricks) at worst, the idea of just stopping oil can only be done in phases as we develop alternative technology. Some sort of middle way has to be best, but with a clear view of what success will look like, and the pathway trodden purposefully and not allowed to deviate to suit political expedience. Just starting oil, or just stopping it are equally daft.

Labour plan to carry on with the new North Sea oil field, citing the same reason of energy security. Putin/OPEC+ trying to screw Western Europe last winter was the eye-opener.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Labour plan to carry on with the new North Sea oil field, citing the same reason of energy security. Putin/OPEC+ trying to screw Western Europe last winter was the eye-opener.

I'm comfortable with that, if they do it to benefit the UK rather than cronies, while at the same time supporting development of 'green' energy. And hopefully the days of Baron Kagan are long in the past.