[Politics] Sir Keir Starmer’s route to Number 10

[WATFORD zero]

I'll probably vote Labour and I hope he wins but he really is a bit of a drip. I lasted about 5 minutes of that speech yesterday before I thought "Bored" How many floating voters will be swayed by his personality?

I agree. Neither Starmer or Rachel Reeves have any charisma.

Exactly, what we really need is more personality and charisma leading the country

 

[Iggle Piggle]

Exactly, what we really need is more personality and charisma leading the country

I agree but the problem is, it's not the likes of me and you he needs to convince. My mum voted Tory at the last election because "I like Boris" and that was the extent of the thought process. That type of floating voter will make all the difference.

 

[Hugo Rune]

Exactly, what we really need is more personality and charisma leading the country

Exactly.

Starmer is so boring. No personality. What we won’t is a man with a character. Someone who nose what working class want. You culd not have a laugh wiv Starmer ever cos he is so dull. No problem PMs doing this if they have got some sort of personality. Starmer would probably be drinking a Heineken zero at his birthday, not having a man’s drink like what Bojo is drinking. Proper English drink quadruple Scotch I’d guess. Cos he is a real man and knows what another man looks like (not a woman like what Starmer finks).

 

[Mellotron]

I agree but the problem is, it's not the likes of me and you he needs to convince. My mum voted Tory at the last election because "I like Boris" and that was the extent of the thought process. That type of floating voter will make all the difference.

So f***ing depressing isn't it.

I'm desperate for some boring, grey politicians to just get on with the job in a very boring, uneventful manner. Quietly competent.

Not these grandstanding, "charismatic" celebrity politicians. Boris Johnson might be better to have a pint down the pub with than Keir Starmer but in no way does that make him qualified to run a f***ing country.

Sorry this isn't aimed at you (or your dear Mother), it just really boils my piss.

 

[WATFORD zero]

I agree but the problem is, it's not the likes of me and you he needs to convince. My mum voted Tory at the last election because "I like Boris" and that was the extent of the thought process. That type of floating voter will make all the difference.

I'm sorry and I don't wish to appear rude but if that type do make the difference then, as currently, "Toute nation a le gouvernement qu'elle mérite."

 

[Weststander]

Note also that there is joined-up thinking going on, because one of the big commitments is for boosting technical colleges and other post-16 education to address the 'missions'. With a bit of luck, some of the funding for this can come through devising special taxes (windfalls would be only one example) for housebuilding companies.

There's also the demise of true long term apprenticeships and a classic British Heath-Robinson approach to it. A year ago my son dabbled with the idea of a construction industry career, there's a government resource of helpful people on a phone line and a website that contained about two vacancies for the entire region!!! Writing/emailing to say 20 local construction businesses led to 20 not bothered to reply.

Contrast to the holy grail of Germany's unrivalled apprenticeship system. In every sector they produce high skilled people up to the equivalent of an honours academic degree.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Exactly, what we really need is more personality and charisma leading the country

Successful politicians know how to communicate. Blair was supremely good at this which largely explains his 3 election victories.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

I agree but the problem is, it's not the likes of me and you he needs to convince. My mum voted Tory at the last election because "I like Boris" and that was the extent of the thought process. That type of floating voter will make all the difference.

But politics, like Sales, is 'a people business'. We can get annoyed about that if we want but it's how things are. Successful politicians use charisma and personality to convey messages effectively. May was a disaster in this way. Cameron, despite his politics, was a pretty good communicator. One exception was John Major. No great personality but enough people thought he seemed like 'a decent man' to vote for him. This is where Starmer needs to be too. He's dull but 'a good man'. That's where he needs to get to in people's consciousness.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Charisma is over-rated. I look at it like a job interview; the ability to do the job well trumps everything else.

You are truly blessed if your leader is both competent AND charismatic, but how many world leaders can you say that about? Obama had it, Jacinda Arden of New Zealand had it but not many more. Angela Merkel wasn't exactly laugh a minute but she was an excellent leader for Germany because she dedicated herself fully.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Charisma is over-rated. I look at it like a job interview; the ability to do the job well trumps everything else.

You are truly blessed if your leader is both competent AND charismatic, but how many world leaders can you say that about? Obama had it, Jacinda Arden of New Zealand had it but not many more. Angela Merkel wasn't exactly laugh a minute but she was an excellent leader for Germany because she dedicated herself fully.

It's a complex serious job and needs an intelligent serious person to do it, as the last 4 years has conclusively proven. I'd keep the 'cult of charisma' limited to Saturday night mainstream TV (and still avoid it personally)

 

[Thunder Bolt]

But politics, like Sales, is 'a people business'. We can get annoyed about that if we want but it's how things are. Successful politicians use charisma and personality to convey messages effectively. May was a disaster in this way. Cameron, despite his politics, was a pretty good communicator. One exception was John Major. No great personality but enough people thought he seemed like 'a decent man' to vote for him. This is where Starmer needs to be too. He's dull but 'a good man'. That's where he needs to get to in people's consciousness.

You vote for your local constituency MP, not the leader. Those who liked ‘Boris’ 4 years ago, are now on their third Prime Minister.

 

[AK74]

I much prefer competency over charisma.

 

[clapham_gull]

Successful politicians know how to communicate. Blair was supremely good at this which largely explains his 3 election victories.

..and ignores the Tories lurch to the right whilst in opposition. It generally hardens their core vote and alienates the votes you need to win an election.

Which is what is happening now.

 

[clapham_gull]

You vote for your local constituency MP, not the leader. Those who liked ‘Boris’ 4 years ago, are now on their third Prime Minister.

Technically but not in the mindset of most of the electorate in modern times.. and we have PMs acting like "presidents" anyway.

I think this will be a factor in the next general election. An un-ease regarding a stream of "unelected" PMs which as you say, is technically how it works.

But how many times it happens under a single administration has got hold of the public mood.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Technically but not in the mindset of most of the electorate in modern times.. and we have PMs acting like "presidents" anyway.

I think this will be a factor in the next general election. An un-ease regarding a stream of "unelected" PMs which as you say, is technically how it works.

But how many times it happens under a single administration has got hold of the public mood.

Unfortunately the media helps this perception.

 

[Machiavelli]

There's also the demise of true long term apprenticeships and a classic British Heath-Robinson approach to it. A year ago my son dabbled with the idea of a construction industry career, there's a government resource of helpful people on a phone line and a website that contained about two vacancies for the entire region!!! Writing/emailing to say 20 local construction businesses led to 20 not bothered to reply.

Contrast to the holy grail of Germany's unrivalled apprenticeship system. In every sector they produce high skilled people up to the equivalent of an honours academic degree.

Also provides parity of esteem too, and the lack of that parity has had severe effects in recent years.

 

[mejonaNO12 aka riskit]

It's so odd that charisma seems to rate highly with the voter over, you know, the stuff they say they will do.

Can you imagine it mattering in a different role?

"Today Mike Smith has been named as the new governor of the Bank of England"
"NO. Not Mike Smith. He's so BORING"

Ultimately the decision making is the key. When you sit back and look at it, the job of the PM is MENTAL. They come in, have a pool of elected people in front of them and have to pick them to head up a department of a sector they often have never been involved in.

PM "So Jeff. Welcome to the government and congratulations on your election"
Jeff "Thank you PM. I'm so happy to be here and to serve"
PM "Jeff, I would like you to bring you into the cabinet and for you head up a department"
J "Wow. Fantastic. Thank you PM. May I ask which one?"
PM "Sure. Well I can see you used to be work in a museum and then went on to run a small cake business with your partner"
J "Yes"
PM "So I want to make you head of Transport"

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

It's so odd that charisma seems to rate highly with the voter over, you know, the stuff they say they will do.

Can you imagine it mattering in a different role?

"Today Mike Smith has been named as the new governor of the Bank of England"
"NO. Not Mike Smith. He's so BORING"

Ultimately the decision making is the key. When you sit back and look at it, the job of the PM is MENTAL. They come in, have a pool of elected people in front of them and have to pick them to head up a department of a sector they often have never been involved in.

PM "So Jeff. Welcome to the government and congratulations on your election"
Jeff "Thank you PM. I'm so happy to be here and to serve"
PM "Jeff, I would like you to bring you into the cabinet and for you head up a department"
J "Wow. Fantastic. Thank you PM. May I ask which one?"
PM "Sure. Well I can see you used to be work in a museum and then went on to run a small cake business with your partner"
J "Yes"
PM "So I want to make you head of Transport"

Or if you had the right to choose who was going to do your heart surgery.

Do you want the sober experienced person who knows his job in detail?

Or the wacky fellow, who might make you laugh if you manage to survive the op?

 

[Stato]

On a constitutional note ALL PMs are chosen by the party members and never by the country. We elect MPs who represent parties. The leader of the most successful party at an election becomes PM. That leader is elected by the party members and MPs alone, and not by the national electorate.

Of course, with no written constitution, everything's always up for grabs. Technically the leader of the party with the most seats does not become PM. Whoever has the confidence of the house and can get a King/Queen's speech through the Commons forms the next government. The leader with the most seats is traditionally asked first by the monarch whether they have the support of the house. However, this is not always the case.

In 1918 David Lloyd George was the incumbent, having replaced, fellow Liberal, Herbert Asquith as leader of the coalition during WW1. At the election his government issued coupons of coalition support to various candidates, but not to any of Asquith's supporters in the Liberal Party. This split his party in two and two Liberal Parties fought the election. Although the Conservatives won enough seats for an overall majority, the 'National Liberals' Lloyd George became PM of another coaltion government.

By 1923 the Liberals had come back together, but the Conservative Stanley Baldwin was the leader of the most successful party at the election. He didn't have a majority and couldn't do a deal with the Liberals having fallen out with both the Lloyd George wing and the leader Asquith. Baldwin's King's Speech was voted down. George V invited Ramsey McDonald, leader of second placed Labour to form the country's first ever Labour government and he formed a minority government with issue-by-issue support from the Liberals. It lasted less than a year.

In 2010, had Nick Clegg been shrewd enough to do the same as Asquith, Cameron's government would probably not have lasted the full term either. Instead he wanted to play statesman, got himself stitched up over Lords reform, was sold the pig in the poke that was the alternative vote referendum and subsequently cast as Howard Devoto in the 2015 General Election.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Charisma is over-rated. I look at it like a job interview; the ability to do the job well trumps everything else.

You are truly blessed if your leader is both competent AND charismatic, but how many world leaders can you say that about? Obama had it, Jacinda Arden of New Zealand had it but not many more. Angela Merkel wasn't exactly laugh a minute but she was an excellent leader for Germany because she dedicated herself fully.

It's a complex serious job and needs an intelligent serious person to do it, as the last 4 years has conclusively proven. I'd keep the 'cult of charisma' limited to Saturday night mainstream TV (and still avoid it personally)

I don’t really agree, even if that sounds counterintuitive. It’s the difference between being a good leader and a good manager. It's good if a PM is a brilliant intellectual but it’s not a prerequisite. He or she has a large team of civil servants and advisers to do the research and come up with the plans. It’s more important IMO to be able to explain them in the right way, and to project gravitas when needed and optimism when needed. They need to carry people with them. If they’re just clever people who can’t engage easily with the country at large they’ll quickly lose popularity and credibility among the floating voters even if the hardened party supporters will stick with them.

Sorry to sound like a Blair fan boy (and I didn’t like what he did re Bush and Iraq), the fact is that he was engaging and persuasive enough to remain a winner even when things got tough. He stayed incredibly popular, especially through the first administration, by projecting an air of easygoing optimism, and being articulate enoughThese qualities aren’t essential to win power but I think they are needed if you want to stay there.

As for the examples quoted, I think it proves the point. Nearly all US presidents rely on a friendly folksiness to get elected, and most successful leaders around the world need the ability to engage. This even works for tyrants like Putin, Trump, Erdogan etc. in fact they need it more than others. You mention Merkel but Germany is still understandably paranoid about electing leaders with a bit too much charisma. They’re very happy with understated leaders!

Of course, with no written constitution, everything's always up for grabs. Technically the leader of the party with the most seats does not become PM. Whoever has the confidence of the house and can get a King/Queen's speech through the Commons forms the next government. The leader with the most seats is traditionally asked first by the monarch whether they have the support of the house. However, this is not always the case.

In 1918 David Lloyd George was the incumbent, having replaced, fellow Liberal, Herbert Asquith as leader of the coalition during WW1. At the election his government issued coupons of coalition support to various candidates, but not to any of Asquith's supporters in the Liberal Party. This split his party in two and two Liberal Parties fought the election. Although the Conservatives won enough seats for an overall majority, the 'National Liberals' Lloyd George became PM of another coaltion government.

By 1923 the Liberals had come back together, but the Conservative Stanley Baldwin was the leader of the most successful party at the election. He didn't have a majority and couldn't do a deal with the Liberals having fallen out with both the Lloyd George wing and the leader Asquith. Baldwin's King's Speech was voted down. George V invited Ramsey McDonald, leader of second placed Labour to form the country's first ever Labour government and he formed a minority government with issue-by-issue support from the Liberals. It lasted less than a year.

In 2010, had Nick Clegg been shrewd enough to do the same as Asquith, Cameron's government would probably not have lasted the full term either. Instead he wanted to play statesman, got himself stitched up over Lords reform, was sold the pig in the poke that was the alternative vote referendum and subsequently cast as Howard Devoto in the 2015 General Election.

All interesting (and I’m not being sarcastic) but in practice, the leader of the largest party, presuming they can form a majority, with or without a coalition partner, becomes PM.