[Politics] Sir Keir Starmer’s route to Number 10

[A1X]

A lot of Tory voters have just walked away from the party as its way to leftwing

Go on then, I’ll play. Please can you talk me through what the current Government is doing that you perceive as being “leftwing”?

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

Modern Monetarism, print as much as you like when you like. I might try that at home!!

And where has this printed money being going - oh yea - into the banks who wrecked the economy 15 years ago.

And what are they doing with this money? - they are using it to gamble on the stock market in shorts futures and derivatives - creating financial bubbles and causing more problems (like inflation).

 

[drew]

I'm sorry, but I know plenty of young doctors and while I have every sympathy for how hard they work the idea that they can be considered "working class" is nonsense on stilts.

I'm sorry but, according the JRG, if they're using their hands or their brains then they are working class.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

I'm sorry but, according the JRG, if they're using their hands or their brains then they are working class.

What if they're using shit for brains?

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

What if they're using shit for brains?

On reflection, even I don't think this is actually funny.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

I'm sorry, but I know plenty of young doctors and while I have every sympathy for how hard they work the idea that they can be considered "working class" is nonsense on stilts.

Whether individual people consider themselves part of the working class is not relevant (I remember talking to a woman who was a cleaner on minimum wage many years ago and she said 'middle-class people like us....' I was a postman at the time. Social class is determined by the relationship of workers to the foundations of the economy. I am sure it is a facet of these middle-class doctors that they engage in months of strike action and continue to do so.

I suggest you go and visit a doctor's picket line and see how militant they are at the moment - they are currently on a four day strike.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

What if they're using shit for brains?

you'll find them in the Tory party

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

Whether individual people consider themselves part of the working class is not relevant (I remember talking to a woman who was a cleaner on minimum wage many years ago and she said 'middle-class people like us....' I was a postman at the time. Social class is determined by the relationship of workers to the foundations of the economy. I am sure it is a facet of these middle-class doctors that they engage in months of strike action and continue to do so.

I suggest you go and visit a doctor's picket line and see how militant they are at the moment - they are currently on a four day strike.

I know, I walked past them this morning.
I refused to do some inspections today, it doesn't make me working class just because I withdrew my labour due to the working conditions.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

I know, I walked past them this morning.
I refused to do some inspections today, it doesn't make me working class just because I withdrew my labour due to the working conditions.

Again - your social class is determined by your relationship to the economy - do you work for a wage or salary - if yes then you are working class - if you run your own business then you are middle class - and if you are pals with Sunak then you are part of the rich elite.

A doctor in the NHS (a public service) in sh*te conditions, starting by earning £32,000 a year, earning 35% less than doctors 15 years ago and having to pay off thousands in student loans, is part of the working class.

 

[Crawley Dingo]

Go on then, I’ll play. Please can you talk me through what the current Government is doing that you perceive as being “leftwing”?

I posted the 4 reasons above, more " not rightwing" and how much is incompetence I don't know. They appear not to give a shit about anybody including those who voted for them and thats not a good strategy.

 

[drew]

Whether individual people consider themselves part of the working class is not relevant (I remember talking to a woman who was a cleaner on minimum wage many years ago and she said 'middle-class people like us....' I was a postman at the time. Social class is determined by the relationship of workers to the foundations of the economy. I am sure it is a facet of these middle-class doctors that they engage in months of strike action and continue to do so.

I suggest you go and visit a doctor's picket line and see how militant they are at the moment - they are currently on a four day strike.

You're right, it's not up to people to consider what class they are in, that's the job of yourself.

So, by your metrics, someone who might be on £200k a year is working class but someone who owns a shop and may clear about £40k profit a year is middleclass.

I'm going to stick my neck out here and suggest that most people will consider your definition of working class as dumb. It certainly isn't what was considered the working class in the 19th century, miners, factory workers, labourers etc, what would now be classified as blue collar workers. I very much doubt that those on a salary working in London for the big banks, insurance companies, finance sector (for argument's sake, let's call them white collar workers) would consider themselves anything other than middleclass.

 

[Machiavelli]

I'm sorry, but I know plenty of young doctors and while I have every sympathy for how hard they work the idea that they can be considered "working class" is nonsense on stilts.

Nope. It's you that don't understand. JRG is spot on on this. The working class are those, like me, that sell their labour, which include junior doctors who are paid as little as £14 an hour. You might have acquainted yourself with other threads where many posters have indicated that it's standard for plasterers to charge £300 a day for their labour.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

You're right, it's not up to people to consider what class they are in, that's the job of yourself.

So, by your metrics, someone who might be on £200k a year is working class but someone who owns a shop and may clear about £40k profit a year is middleclass.

I'm going to stick my neck out here and suggest that most people will consider your definition of working class as dumb. It certainly isn't what was considered the working class in the 19th century, miners, factory workers, labourers etc, what would now be classified as blue collar workers. I very much doubt that those on a salary working in London for the big banks, insurance companies, finance sector (for argument's sake, let's call them white collar workers) would consider themselves anything other than middleclass.

I don't make the distinction - sociologists did that many years ago

Yes - someone earning £200K can be working class and a shopkeeper earning £40 can be middle class - it is not the amount you earn -it is the ownership of the means of production. But - importantly - there are very few workers who earn £200K a year (in fact I cannot think of any job that would have that type of a salary scale) - and there are very few shops left where the profit would be £40k - they would have been wiped out by the multiples.

You can call my definition of working class dumb - except its not mine - as I said - it is the definition arrived at by many many sociologists, many many years ago.

The traditional Tory and liberal definition of working class was the blue collar worker - and it is a definition based in class bias. But here is your problem with those working for a salary in a bank or finance house - the vast majority are working class. Those salaried workers who aren't working class are the individuals who benefit from things like company performance bonuses, share options etc (effectively those climbing the corporate ladder) - they have a vested interest in increasing profits irrespective of the consequences to their fellow workers or wider society.

 

[Machiavelli]

You're right, it's not up to people to consider what class they are in, that's the job of yourself.

So, by your metrics, someone who might be on £200k a year is working class but someone who owns a shop and may clear about £40k profit a year is middleclass.

I'm going to stick my neck out here and suggest that most people will consider your definition of working class as dumb. It certainly isn't what was considered the working class in the 19th century, miners, factory workers, labourers etc, what would now be classified as blue collar workers. I very much doubt that those on a salary working in London for the big banks, insurance companies, finance sector (for argument's sake, let's call them white collar workers) would consider themselves anything other than middleclass.

Stick your neck out as much as you like. Go and read Marx who knew a little bit more about class than you do. The one thing that JRG isn't being is dumb on class. He might be of the view that his posts are read closely and in full which is a problematic view, but not when it comes to the notion of class.

 

[Wokeworrier]

Nope. It's you that don't understand. JRG is spot on on this. The working class are those, like me, that sell their labour, which include junior doctors who are paid as little as £14 an hour. You might have acquainted yourself with other threads where many posters have indicated that it's standard for plasterers to charge £300 a day for their labour.

You are as close to the working classes as the average Tory cabinet minister ...

 

[beorhthelm]

I don't make the distinction - sociologists did that many years ago

Yes - someone earning £200K can be working class and a shopkeeper earning £40 can be middle class - it is not the amount you earn -it is the ownership of the means of production. But - importantly - there are very few workers who earn £200K a year (in fact I cannot think of any job that would have that type of a salary scale) - and there are very few shops left where the profit would be £40k - they would have been wiped out by the multiples.

You can call my definition of working class dumb - except its not mine - as I said - it is the definition arrived at by many many sociologists, many many years ago.

The traditional Tory and liberal definition of working class was the blue collar worker - and it is a definition based in class bias. But here is your problem with those working for a salary in a bank or finance house - the vast majority are working class. Those salaried workers who aren't working class are the individuals who benefit from things like company performance bonuses, share options etc (effectively those climbing the corporate ladder) - they have a vested interest in increasing profits irrespective of the consequences to their fellow workers or wider society.

so a tradesman, a fitter or plumber is mddle class, while the banker employing him to fit a new kitchen is working class. cant wait for this work class to rise up

or maybe our modern workforce and socio-economic distinctions dont follow 200 year old models, that probably didnt really even apply then.

 

[drew]

Stick your neck out as much as you like. Go and read Marx who knew a little bit more about class than you do. The one thing that JRG isn't being is dumb on class. He might be of the view that his posts are read closely and in full which is a problematic view, but not when it comes to the notion of class.

Marx didn't live in the 21st century, he didn't even make it as far as the 20th Century. I haven't read him but I doubt very much he foresaw how capitalism and the global economy would develop the way it has.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

As an important aside - demonstrating the problems for Starmer's Blairite party and the potential of a left-wing movement.

Starmer's henchmen recently dumped the Labour Mayor of the North of Tyne Combined Authority - Jamie Driscoll. Driscoll was suspended from LP membership because he attended an event that was also attended by Ken Loach.

Driscoll has declared his candidacy for the North East Mayoral Combined Authority as an independent candidate. Within two hours of announcement, his campaign fundraising website had raised over £25,000. By yesterday that total is over £128,000 from over 5800 different donations. Last Saturday 300 people attended a campaign organising meeting for Driscoll. Former LP councillors have resigned from the party to campaign for Driscoll - half of the 22 CLPs in the region have refused to endorse the Blairite candidate Kim McGuinness - several others endorsed the candidate after the members were refused a vote, the Blairite bureaucrat running the meeting merely accepting a proposal that she be endorsed. An FBU official has been suspended from the LP for supporting Driscoll and the FBU have responded by refusing to campaign for any LP candidates.

Now - to be clear - Driscoll is nothing approaching a far-left candidate - but even the whiff of an alternative to Starmer's LP has gained a significant echo in this election campaign and it will be interesting to see what happens (and Corbyn should be knocking on doors with Driscoll from now until election day).

 

[Machiavelli]

Marx didn't live in the 21st century, he didn't even make it as far as the 20th Century. I haven't read him but I doubt very much he foresaw how capitalism and the global economy would develop the way it has.

On many things, he was remarkably prescient -- for instance, he predicted globalisation. We are talking about the theorist who best analysed the capitalist economy, so he had a better idea of it in the 19th century than I or you do in the 21st century.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

Marx didn't live in the 21st century, he didn't even make it as far as the 20th Century. I haven't read him but I doubt very much he foresaw how capitalism and the global economy would develop the way it has.

In fact Marx predicted exactly how the global economy would develop including globalisation - his analysis of the nature of the capitalist economic system has been pretty much spot-on.