[Politics] Sir Keir Starmer’s route to Number 10

[Sid and the Sharknados]

I look way beyond “Anything’s better than this lot” and the tedious social media game of political tennis. Having purported ‘nice people’ in the cabinet alone won’t solve a thing.

Focusing on fiscal policy and how that flows downs to our decrepit infrastructure, folk starving, cold or needing an op. In that light, in the first 100 days I want to know what physically will be done, what’s the plan?

Starmer/Reeves have an opportunity here to start mapping some of this out.

I'd love to know all those things, but the election is months away and I just read on another thread that the latest polling has Labour on course to win over 450 seats. It's hard to justify the position that they're doing too much wrong.
I'll completely understand if you decline to answer this, since it's a secret ballot, but is your current position that you'll vote Conservative in the absence of any more detailed policy from Labour?

 

[Weststander]

I'd love to know all those things, but the election is months away and I just read on another thread that the latest polling has Labour on course to win over 450 seats. It's hard to justify the position that they're doing too much wrong.
I'll completely understand if you decline to answer this, since it's a secret ballot, but is your current position that you'll vote Conservative in the absence of any more detailed policy from Labour?

I’m open on nsc about my voting.

Bowden, Tory 1992
Des Turner, Labour 1997
2001 and 2005 …. can’t remember
Lucas, Green 2010, 2015 and 2019
I voted Remain.
2024 it will definitely be Green again. Not an anti Labour thing, but I love the 1/650th uniqueness of a Green representing my constituency and some of their policies.

Because I don’t post bile against Johnson and Sunak every awake moment, that could wrongly be interpreted as being a secret Tory. I don’t do the hate thing of the noisy left v right cabals on nsc. They’re a lot of us about, the overwhelming majority imho.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

I’m open on nsc about my voting.

Bowden, Tory 1992
Des Turner, Labour 1997
2001 and 2005 …. can’t remember
Lucas, Green 2010, 2015 and 2019
I voted Remain.
2024 it will definitely be Green again. Not an anti Labour thing, but I love the 1/650th uniqueness of a Green representing my constituency and some of their policies.

Because I don’t post bile against Johnson and Sunak every awake moment, that could wrongly be interpreted as being a secret Tory. I don’t do the hate thing of the noisy left v right cabals on nsc. They’re a lot of us about, the overwhelming majority imho.

I'm not suggesting you're a secret Tory, my question was just in relation to the idea that Labour were losing your vote by not being more inspirational with their current policy platform.

For what it's worth, I think voting Green in a constituency where it means a damn is completely worthwhile.

Notwithstanding that the voting system means a decent chunk of the votes for them won't make any difference even in a constituency where they win.
But we'll brush over my views on the voting system because they're BORING.

I'm pretty sure most of my posts are about how great Mark Wood is, rather than abusing Sunak, for what it's worth.

 

[clapham_gull]

Didn't say he was doing it now - but Starmer forced Corbyn into an untenable position on Brexit during the last election and contributed to the Tory win (so the Blairites could shaft Corbyn).

Starmer is pro-EU - more specifically he supports the financial capital interests that run it. He can't call for re-admission to the EU because 1. it would blow up in his face - and 2. the EU elites wouldn't take Britain back anyway.

The impossible position Corbyn found himself in was being politically at odds on the EU with the influx of new young members and supporters.

When they finally sussed, their support slowly drifted away.

 

[Weststander]

I'm not suggesting you're a secret Tory, my question was just in relation to the idea that Labour were losing your vote by not being more inspirational with their current policy platform.

For what it's worth, I think voting Green in a constituency where it means a damn is completely worthwhile.

Notwithstanding that the voting system means a decent chunk of the votes for them won't make any difference even in a constituency where they win.
But we'll brush over my views on the voting system because they're BORING.

I'm pretty sure most of my posts are about how great Mark Wood is, rather than abusing Sunak, for what it's worth.

Mark Wood and Chris Woakes …. the future

I’m not turned off by Starmer’s Labour at all. The last Labour front benchers I thought were awful were Abbott, Thornberry (the snide when with Corbyn) and Burgon. A complete car crash. I will include Abbott … some deem her taboo, because “it must be racism”. I love Peter Kyle and Yvette Cooper, do you remember the hard left from a tiny party infiltrated Brighton and Hove Labour, one reason was to deselect Kyle.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

Mark Wood and Chris Woakes …. the future

I’m not turned off by Starmer’s Labour at all. The last Labour front benchers I thought were awful were Abbott, Thornberry (the snide when with Corbyn) and Burgon. A complete car crash. I will include Abbott … some deem her taboo, because “it must be racism”. I love Peter Kyle and Yvette Cooper, do you remember the hard left from a tiny party infiltrated Brighton and Hove Labour, one reason was to deselect Kyle.

I'll quite happily hold my hand up as a member of the Abbott's An Idiot Brigade.
Can't stand Thornberry either.
I'll be honest that I'd managed to completely expunge Burgon from my memory, but having just looked him up I see he's a big heavy metal fan so he can't be all bad.

 

[Weststander]

I'll quite happily hold my hand up as a member of the Abbott's An Idiot Brigade.
Can't stand Thornberry either.
I'll be honest that I'd managed to completely expunge Burgon from my memory, but having just looked him up I see he's a big heavy metal fan so he can't be all bad.

Burgon was turned into a joke amongst my extended family … the youtube interviews are great entertainment, in my youtube comedy library along with Paul Whitehouse clips and James O’Brien clashing with British Trump supporters. My mischievous mind

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

Burgon was turned into a joke amongst my extended family … the youtube interviews are great entertainment, in my youtube comedy library along with Paul Whitehouse clips and James O’Brien clashing with British Trump supporters. My mischievous mind

My YouTube history consists almost exclusively of Sean Lock clips, comedy computer game reviews and the Let The Sunshine In bit of Age of Aquarius by The 5th Dimension played about 400 times.
Great bass part.

Happily, it's entirely uncontaminated by politics.

Incidentally re. Paul Whitehouse, I'm watching the first series of The Fast Show on BBC iplayer at the moment, and a bunch of the "Brilliant!" bits are filmed around Darlo town centre.
Which is nice.

 

[giveusfalmerplease]

Well for a start, as a right wing MP he should renounce his knighthood

 

[Weststander]

My YouTube history consists almost exclusively of Sean Lock clips, comedy computer game reviews and the Let The Sunshine In bit of Age of Aquarius by The 5th Dimension played about 400 times.
Great bass part.

Happily, it's entirely uncontaminated by politics.

Incidentally re. Paul Whitehouse, I'm watching the first series of The Fast Show on BBC iplayer at the moment, and a bunch of the "Brilliant!" bits are filmed around Darlo town centre.
Which is nice.

I love that. In my huge 60’s/70’s youtube play list. I’m drawn to bass lines, Hookie, Simon Gallup, Bernard Edwards et al all heroes.

The Fast Show is still amazing, as is Harry & Paul, Alas Smith & Jones. Did you ever give The Thick Of It a go … comedy nirvana for me.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

How did he do that then? Corbyn was leader and noticeably absent from most 'Remain' campaigning, probably because he was actually a Brexiteer.
The next election isn't going to be won by Starmer pandering to the far left just as Sunak has no chance (if he has any) by pandering to the far right. The election will be won by winning over the middle ground (as it always is and probably always will be). In 1997, Blair said they would stick to Major's spending plans for their first term. Starmer will pretty much be forced to do the same unless there is some exceptional growth that generates more government revenue. Once in, they can then plan how to turn things around, both in public spending and trying to sort out a fair tax regime.

The far left always remind me of the Dutch national football team. Always looks like they could achieve something but then the in fighting starts and they shoot themselves in the foot!!!

If you are unaware of the hatchet job done by the Blairites in LP HQ and the PLP on Corbyn up to and during the election campaign then there is little I can do to help you.

Starmer was given responsibility by the Blairites to draft a position on Brexit that nobody could defend and he did it to put Corbyn in a bind. Corbyn was an idiot for trying to defend the hole Starmer had dug for him. Since Starmer has become leader of the LP the membership has collapsed - through a combination of thousands leaving every month and thousands more being expelled.

Blair got elected in 1997 not because he was popular but because the Tories were so mired in scandals and corruption that Screaming Lord Sutch could have beaten them - and then what did Blair do - he tried to out Tory the Tories - Blair lost 3million votes in 2001 and another 1.2million in 2005. The only reason why he held on in 2005 was because the LibDems ate into Tory territory and stopped them winning seats from LP. Corbyn was the leader who succeeded in getting the 3 million votes back and, recognising that he could actually win a general election, the Blairites were prepared to wreck the LP than have him win an election. That is what happened in 2019.

The following policies all have more than 50% support in Britain - some have support up in the 70s
Raising the minimum wage
trade unions rights
redistribution of wealth
Introduction of a wealth tax
Increasing welfare benefits
investment in public education
opposing academies and the privatisation of education
nationalisation of the railways
nationalisation of gas and electricity
nationalisation of water
nationalisation of postal service
increased investment in and stopping privatisation of the NHS

Among the u-25s the percentages are even higher.

Now - the question is then posed why a LP promoting these policies does not get elected - the reason is simple - the Blairites are opposed to all of these policies because they are pale pink tories who support neo-liberal capitalism - they have no interest or intent in implementing any of those policies. People will vote for Starmer because he is not a Tory - and then, when he implements the exact same policies as the Tories his support will collapse (possibly within weeks).

I have made this point before - when Corbyn was elected he should have implemented mandatory reselection of all LP MPs and the local constituency parties would have taken out the Blairites. But Corbyn - the idiot - decided to accommodate the Blairites, giving them the power to sabotage his leadership - and that is exactly what they did.

Last year when the leadership of the RMT and other unions, along with a couple of left LP MPs, launched Enough is Enough it gained 150,000 on the day of its launch. The campaign now has an estimate membership of more than 700,000 (bigger than the LP membership that grew dramatically under Corbyn). If Corbyn (and McDonnell) had any backbone he would throw his full weight behind Enough is Enough and use it as the launch pad for a new workers party that could top 1 million members within weeks - and pose a direct challenge to the Blairites and the Tories. Furthermore, the British TUC should be organising a general strike to bring down the Tory government - but they won't - because they are terrified that they would be unable to control the movement they would unleash.

But will Corbyn do this - probably not - and as a result the process of building a new workers party in Britain is going to be much more protracted. Workers will end up voting for Starmer to get the Tories out - and then expect a massive strike wave as working class people demand that Starmer take measures to combat the cost of living crisis and grant necessary pay increases. Starmer will either be forced to do this or will likely face a major backlash throughout the working class. It will potentially make the 'Winter of Discontent' look like a teddy bears picnic.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

I love that. In my huge 60’s/70’s youtube play list. I’m drawn to bass lines, Hookie, Simon Gallup, Bernard Edwards et al all heroes.

The Fast Show is still amazing, as is Harry & Paul, Alas Smith & Jones. Did you ever give The Thick Of It a go … comedy nirvana for me.

I gather it's Joe Osborn on that recording.

Loved The Thick Of It, I think I started watching it the 3rd series with Nicola Murray, I'm not sure off the top of my head if I ever went back and watched all the earlier episodes but I've seen bits of them and the film.

 

[Weststander]

I gather it's Joe Osborn on that recording.

Loved The Thick Of It, I think I started watching it the 3rd series with Nicola Murray, I'm not sure off the top of my head if I ever went back and watched all the earlier episodes but I've seen bits of them and the film.

We have the blu-ray set, including the Washington DC based follow up. Malcolm Tucker (based on Alastair Campbell), even the name makes me laugh. I wanted to watch it with my early teens son a few years back, Mrs.W banned that due the colourful language

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

We have the blu-ray set, including the Washington DC based follow up. Malcolm Tucker (based on Alastair Campbell), even the name makes me laugh. I wanted to watch it with my early teens son a few years back, Mrs.W banned that due the colourful language

Your early teens son has definitely heard worse than anything on the Thick Of It.

My older brother's about 7years older than me. I was doing a (terrible) impression of Father Jack from Father Ted when I was about 5.

 

[Weststander]

Your early teens son has definitely heard worse than anything on the Thick Of It.

My older brother's about 7years older than me. I was doing a (terrible) impression of Father Jack from Father Ted when I was about 5.

Covered on LBC today, educationalists who work with infants mention boys using f*ck and worse (presumably c*nt) …. gleaned from the internet!

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

Covered on LBC today, educationalists who work with infants mention boys using f*ck and worse (presumably c*nt) …. gleaned from the internet!

It's horrifying to us, but I suppose those children will find things we think are completely normal bizarre when they grow up.
I'd guess there's only a year or two's worth of people younger than me who'll remember only having 4 TV channels, and not having the Internet (I'm 31, since that observation doesn't really mean anything without knowing my age).

 

[Mo Gosfield]

It's horrifying to us, but I suppose those children will find things we think are completely normal bizarre when they grow up.
I'd guess there's only a year or two's worth of people younger than me who'll remember only having 4 TV channels, and not having the Internet (I'm 31, since that observation doesn't really mean anything without knowing my age).

Try growing up with two TV channels, both in black and white. Telephones were on a cord, in a home, if you were lucky, or a public phone box, which usually stank of something unspeakable or had been vandalised. Families had one car, if they could afford it and the husband usually took that to work, leaving the wife to get around by foot or public transport. There was no self-service. In garages, a mechanic ( proper bloke in a boiler suit, carrying an oily rag ) came out and filled up your car. He would also ask if you wanted your oil and water checked. Grocery stores had marble counters and people in white aprons serving you. Shoppers carried wicker baskets, which had to hold a few days worth of provisions. Sugar was loose in a sack. Butter cut off a large pat and wrapped in greaseproof. Bacon sliced off a whole side. A lot of homes had no refrigeration. Pantries, with air bricks. Some more remote areas were served by mobile grocery vans.
Kids made their own way to school. Lots of walking. Bit of bus. Bit of train. No instant reference points ( google etc ) The public library was where you found things out. No calculators. No computers. No credit cards. No credit ( unless you bought on tic and paid weekly on the doorstep ) A lot of youngsters couldn't afford a car. If you didn't have the cash saved, you went without.
Workers had a two week summer break plus bank holidays, almost always spent in the UK. 70 degrees F was considered lovely warm weather. A lot of homes had no heating ( no radiators ) An open fire or a warm kitchen. That was it. In school holidays, kids left the house after breakfast and came back at tea-time. There were no search parties out looking for them.
Political leaning was fairly clearly defined. There were 240 pennies in a pound and the cheapest sweets cost one farthing....a quarter of an old penny....1/960th of a pound. Five years of current BHA season ticket prices would buy you a decent house.
There were men and women, boys and girls and footballers had greased down hair with centre partings. Things were different. Not better or worse just different. The advancements have been spectacular and amazing. We have to think less. More is provided and done for us now, although many still feel they are hard done by.
I hanker for some of the past. I relish some of the present and I definitely worry about some of the future.

 

[drew]

If you are unaware of the hatchet job done by the Blairites in LP HQ and the PLP on Corbyn up to and during the election campaign then there is little I can do to help you.

Starmer was given responsibility by the Blairites to draft a position on Brexit that nobody could defend and he did it to put Corbyn in a bind. Corbyn was an idiot for trying to defend the hole Starmer had dug for him. Since Starmer has become leader of the LP the membership has collapsed - through a combination of thousands leaving every month and thousands more being expelled.

Blair got elected in 1997 not because he was popular but because the Tories were so mired in scandals and corruption that Screaming Lord Sutch could have beaten them - and then what did Blair do - he tried to out Tory the Tories - Blair lost 3million votes in 2001 and another 1.2million in 2005. The only reason why he held on in 2005 was because the LibDems ate into Tory territory and stopped them winning seats from LP. Corbyn was the leader who succeeded in getting the 3 million votes back and, recognising that he could actually win a general election, the Blairites were prepared to wreck the LP than have him win an election. That is what happened in 2019.

The following policies all have more than 50% support in Britain - some have support up in the 70s
Raising the minimum wage
trade unions rights
redistribution of wealth
Introduction of a wealth tax
Increasing welfare benefits
investment in public education
opposing academies and the privatisation of education
nationalisation of the railways
nationalisation of gas and electricity
nationalisation of water
nationalisation of postal service
increased investment in and stopping privatisation of the NHS

Among the u-25s the percentages are even higher.

Now - the question is then posed why a LP promoting these policies does not get elected - the reason is simple - the Blairites are opposed to all of these policies because they are pale pink tories who support neo-liberal capitalism - they have no interest or intent in implementing any of those policies. People will vote for Starmer because he is not a Tory - and then, when he implements the exact same policies as the Tories his support will collapse (possibly within weeks).

I have made this point before - when Corbyn was elected he should have implemented mandatory reselection of all LP MPs and the local constituency parties would have taken out the Blairites. But Corbyn - the idiot - decided to accommodate the Blairites, giving them the power to sabotage his leadership - and that is exactly what they did.

Last year when the leadership of the RMT and other unions, along with a couple of left LP MPs, launched Enough is Enough it gained 150,000 on the day of its launch. The campaign now has an estimate membership of more than 700,000 (bigger than the LP membership that grew dramatically under Corbyn). If Corbyn (and McDonnell) had any backbone he would throw his full weight behind Enough is Enough and use it as the launch pad for a new workers party that could top 1 million members within weeks - and pose a direct challenge to the Blairites and the Tories. Furthermore, the British TUC should be organising a general strike to bring down the Tory government - but they won't - because they are terrified that they would be unable to control the movement they would unleash.

But will Corbyn do this - probably not - and as a result the process of building a new workers party in Britain is going to be much more protracted. Workers will end up voting for Starmer to get the Tories out - and then expect a massive strike wave as working class people demand that Starmer take measures to combat the cost of living crisis and grant necessary pay increases. Starmer will either be forced to do this or will likely face a major backlash throughout the working class. It will potentially make the 'Winter of Discontent' look like a teddy bears picnic.

Just to remind you that Corbyn didn't win an election, in fact he had the worst defeat in an election since Major. The left might want to blame Starmer for losing but the reality is Corbyn was inept as a leader. As I said before, to win an election you have to win the centre ground. You seem to forget also that the 2005 election was post Iraq war yet still Blair won a third term.

Had Corbyn done what you suggest and got rid of the 'blairites' the party would never see power because they'd never get the crucial vote from the middle ground.

As for Starmer and brexit, exactly what position did he take that upset Corbyn other than the fact that Starmer was for Remain whilst Corbyn just didn't really commit and everyone could see that (probably because he was at heart a Brexiteer).

Finally, the libdems only won a further 12 seats and that wasn't going to put a dent in the labour majority from 2001.

You can try and rewrite history as much as you like but this country will never, and never has, voted for a far left labour leader. It's easy to list a load of policies but not so easy to identify exactly how it will be paid for.

 

[A1X]

Neither has the Dutch national team.

The far left will never go away and if they have strong beliefs then fair enough. However, they aren't going to get anywhere near achieving any of their aims if the Tories win so it is in their long term interest to back Starmer, in my opinion.

This is what the far right have realised with the Tory party for generations. Wolf in sheep’s clothing to get in, then once on the throne they can unleash their libertarian / xenophobic fantasies on the rest of society knowing they’re basically untouchable.

 

[drew]

This is what the far right have realised with the Tory party for generations. Wolf in sheep’s clothing to get in, then once on the throne they can unleash their libertarian / xenophobic fantasies on the rest of society knowing they’re basically untouchable.

Agree, the extremes on both sides are dangerous however this current period is the first that I can recall of the far right of the conservatives dominating the party as much as this. It'll come home to roost at the next election. Problem for Labour will be if the far left then try to undermine Starmer's government from day 1 with unrealistic demands.