[News] Should The Church pay tax?

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I don't think people do good things because they think "God will like them for it" - I certainly don't. They do it because their faith tells them it is the right thing to do..... but many people would also be doing it without that extra stimulus.

As for your assertin that belief in God will die ..... Dream on.

No, on second thoughts, humans have never been rational and there is indeed little prospect of that changing (electing Trump, etc). As you were.

 

[Uncle C]

I'm not an Anglican, and so can claim not to be "blighted" by it. Neither do I know a great deal about it.
But it is, to say the least, not something I would be comfortable with. But I'm a liberal leftie wishy-washy Protestant Christian who would not get wound up about things like same-sex marriage or working with people from other faiths. I would hazard a wildly prejudiced guess that those who would look to use CRL would be more likely to be in rural locations in the Tory Shires.
If I were a member of a Church that had the opportunity of using it, I would not be happy about doing so and would vote against it if I were a member of a PCC that was considering using it, particularly if it were clearly going to cause hardship.
And in terms of a solicitor not turning it up in a property search and then that not being tackled after an appeal to the law Society, I think that is disgusting.

Thanks for your reply. I dont have an issue with it.

And in terms of a solicitor not turning it up in a property search and then that not being tackled after an appeal to the law Society, I think that is disgusting.

The Law Society argued it was a little used Right and so there was no expectation on the Conveyancer to search for it. This despite my presenting a full history of CRL activity since the 1920's. Where does one go from there?

 

[Half Time Pies]

Good post. No problem will all of it except the last bit. Organised belief, especially in an imaginary deity, is delusional. Doing good things is good, and doing it under the auspices of a club or friends society is great. Having a ceremony where you drink the imaginary blood of a long dead person is perverse. That said, CoE is harmless. That, sadly, is why it is so unsuccessful these days in attracting punters, versus the hardline religions including Catholicism and Islam.

I have every respect for people who collect food for the poor and man the soup kitchens in hostels. etc. However, do it becauase you want to, not because you think god will like you for it.

Low alcohol lager (CoE) is mostly harmless, and the alcoholic (religious maniac) is bound to opt for vodka or buckfast (militant Islam etc) in the search for salvation. But it is all part of the same slippey slope of delusional bollocks. It may take another 100 years before most people are as relaxed as me about saying 'there is no god' but it will happen eventually.

I really can't see how you can lump islamic extremism in with the CofE, Father Chris, Mavis and the rest of his congregation and the quakers at the end of the road are not all heading down a slippery slope to extremism or responsible in anyway for ISIS. Using your own analogy Its like saying that because someone has a couple of shandy's a week they are somehow responsible for alcoholism and all the social problems that it causes.

Using my own experience and a rational non-deluded thought process I can only infer that religion or a belief in god (on its own) isn't a problem as many religious groups operate in perfect harmony within their communities and cause absolutely no harm to anyone.

 

[Simster]

I have every respect for people who collect food for the poor and man the soup kitchens in hostels. etc. However, do it becauase you want to, not because you think god will like you for it.

That's very good of you. Maybe they do it because their moral code is guided by their religious beliefs? Personally I do some charity work run by the local church - I act as a taxi service for the local aged population for whom the church runs a monthly Sunday lunch. I'm not religious personally, but you know what? At least 90% of the people who contribute towards that service definitely ARE.

And out of interest, I'd be interested to know what proportion of all soup kitchens are run by organisations with an affinity to a religion. I bet it's pretty high. Exceptionally so, in fact.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

[/B]

No, on second thoughts, humans have never been rational and there is indeed little prospect of that changing (electing Trump, etc). As you were.

And there are plenty of people who count themselves as Christian who would struggle themselves with much of what others would describe as "fairy tales".

"Was Jesus the Son of God, or just a good bloke whose teachings are worth following - Discuss". A great deal of the Bible - particularly the New Testament - is about Social Justice, tolerance, putting aside prejudice etc etc.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Thanks for your reply. I dont have an issue with it.

And in terms of a solicitor not turning it up in a property search and then that not being tackled after an appeal to the law Society, I think that is disgusting.

The Law Society argued it was a little used Right and so there was no expectation on the Conveyancer to search for it. This despite my presenting a full history of CRL activity since the 1920's. Where does one go from there?

It didn't take much searching last night to find something about how to search for this if you are in the process of buying a house, which would suggest it is nowaccepted as being necessary. I also saw something about someone in the Lords btrying to bring forward legislation to stop the practice, but it seems to have got lost.

The more I read about it last night, after writing my reply to you, the worse it looked, and I think it is appalling that the Church sees fit actually to use this outdated and outmoded legislation.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Good post. No problem will all of it except the last bit. Organised belief, especially in an imaginary deity, is delusional. Doing good things is good, and doing it under the auspices of a club or friends society is great. Having a ceremony where you drink the imaginary blood of a long dead person is perverse. That said, CoE is harmless. That, sadly, is why it is so unsuccessful these days in attracting punters, versus the hardline religions including Catholicism and Islam.

I have every respect for people who collect food for the poor and man the soup kitchens in hostels. etc. However, do it becauase you want to, not because you think god will like you for it.

Low alcohol lager (CoE) is mostly harmless, and the alcoholic (religious maniac) is bound to opt for vodka or buckfast (militant Islam etc) in the search for salvation. But it is all part of the same slippey slope of delusional bollocks. It may take another 100 years before most people are as relaxed as me about saying 'there is no god' but it will happen eventually.

People have been saying that for 2000 years, but there are more Christians in the world now, than at any time in history. It is on the decline in the West, but well on the rise in Korea, China and the Middle East.

 

[Arthritic Toe]

I always think its strange how some posters on here like to take every opportunity to use a thread to have a pop at religion in general and belittle peoples beliefs. There also always seems to be some real anger behind this hatred of anything religious which I can't really understand. In the case of the CofE for example most parish congregations in the UK go about their business very quietly, gone are the days when religion was rammed down peoples throats.

I am not a christian but I have visited a lot of churches near where my business is located and between them they organise a food bank and deliver food to vulnerable people in the community, their church halls are used by various groups and organisations and the vicars that I have met seem like a decent bunch who generally want the best for the community. In the same town the quakers run an excellent care home for the elderly, you don't have to be a quaker to live there but its really well run and half the price of comparable ones in the area. Then just down the road there is the beachy head chaplaincy which has a team of volunteers up on the downs in all weathers helping to prevent people from committing suicide.

So as these religious organisations are quietly going about their business, doing some good and keeping themselves to themselves, how about giving them a break and letting them believe what they want to believe?

There are many Christian groups doing wonderful things and all credit to them. I have a problem with your last line though. The CofE as a whole though cannot be said to go quietly about their business doing good. It's a church of two very different halves. One is the side you refer to, but the other side is a sinister, secretive, mafia-like, self-serving, ruthless business operation. It renders the whole thing one giant hypocrisy.

 

[Half Time Pies]

There are many Christian groups doing wonderful things and all credit to them. I have a problem with your last line though. The CofE as a whole though cannot be said to go quietly about their business doing good. It's a church of two very different halves. One is the side you refer to, but the other side is a sinister, secretive, mafia-like, self-serving, ruthless business operation. It renders the whole thing one giant hypocrisy.

Thats a pretty bold statement but I have absolutely no knowledge of the larger CofE structure so can only comment on what I see going on around me in my local area.

Even if this is true though it wouldn't be down to their belief in a god that makes them sinister and mafia-like but more the way that they are run, their culture and who is at the top. There are lots of non-religious corrupt organisations, charities, businesses, whole governments out there, FIFA for example would give most mafia-like organisations a run for their money!

 

[Perfidious Albion]

We can all have a different view of religious faith.... truth or delusion? You have to decide.
I do believe that in the 21st century the simple spreading of religion should not be a cause for Charitable Status without the demonstration of practical aid in the community or wider world, but it is.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

We can all have a different view of religious faith.... truth or delusion? You have to decide.
I do believe that in the 21st century the simple spreading of religion should not be a cause for Charitable Status without the demonstration of practical aid in the community or wider world, but it is.

The practical aid in the community and wider world is easily found, if you look hard enough. Some of it already mentioned on this thread.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I'm not an Anglican, and so can claim not to be "blighted" by it. Neither do I know a great deal about it.
But it is, to say the least, not something I would be comfortable with. But I'm a liberal leftie wishy-washy Protestant Christian who would not get wound up about things like same-sex marriage or working with people from other faiths. I would hazard a wildly prejudiced guess that those who would look to use CRL would be more likely to be in rural locations in the Tory Shires.
If I were a member of a Church that had the opportunity of using it, I would not be happy about doing so and would vote against it if I were a member of a PCC that was considering using it, particularly if it were clearly going to cause hardship.
And in terms of a solicitor not turning it up in a property search and then that not being tackled after an appeal to the law Society, I think that is disgusting.

That ties in with the age old joke about God and the devil having a discussion over the boundaries of heaven and hell. God said, let's take it to court, and the devil said, Don't be silly, where are you going to find a lawyer?

 

[rippleman]

The reason why the Church is cash poor is because they have a screwed business model!

They have far too many churches for those who want to go to Church. They are paying for the upkeep of buildings and paying the staff when they are lucky if they get a turnout of one man and his dog. Sell off the churches through a rationalisation programme and pay the tax OR donate the land and buildings to charitable trusts / foundations that can redevelop the land to provide affordable housing.

 

[beorhthelm]

The reason why the Church is cash poor is because they have a screwed business model!

you can call it a screwed business model, i call it an obsolete product.

 

[Seasidesage]

and other charities and not for profits organisations too? or just those things you ideologically object to?

COE owns more than £6.7b in assets apparently. If they were that charitable surely they would've sold some of that to help the poor by now? Specific charities helping the poor should of course be exempt from tax, but why should the Church or indeed Eton for example not pay tax? I have to, you do, why don't they? They should be perfectly allowed to claim tax relief where applicable but not be exempt.

 

[aftershavedave]

Of course the church should pay taxes, whyever not? everybody else does (apart from tax evaders and the Queen it would appear).

Everybody should pay tax for the common good, of course

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Apologies to all the religious folk I have offended recently. Religion no longer plays any part in my work or home life, so I can't really complain about what other people do in their own time.

 

[HastingsSeagull]

Of course they should along with other cults and similar on profits, but something tells me with good accounting they won't make any anyway.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Apologies to all the religious folk I have offended recently. Religion no longer plays any part in my work or home life, so I can't really complain about what other people do in their own time.

Don't worry too much about it. Religious Folk aren't necessarily that easy to offend.

Just because you disagree with something someone says doesn't necessarily mean you are offended. Live and Let Live.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

The reason why the Church is cash poor is because they have a screwed business model!

you can call it a screwed business model, i call it an obsolete product.

A Church is not a business. It needs to be as business-like as possible, but it can't "abandon" whole communities. In some villages, the Church would be the only community building in the place, and they are not just ised for an hour on a Sunday morning.

And interesting to hear that caring about people and the communities in which they live is an obsolete product. We're obviously all going to hell in a handcart.