[Politics] Should NATO send in troops and planes

[Baldseagull]

Who benefits from War -

And who loses from war -

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/kentucky-teachers-retirement-fund-lost-3m-selling-investment-russian-b-rcna18781

Many countries benefit from war, America and Russia top 2 Arms exporters in the world, Russia might have trouble selling their Pantsir missile systems in the future though.

I have to ask you, what do you think Europe would look like if there had never been NATO? I suspect you and I would come up with similar pictures, but you would quite like the look of it, whereas I would like it a lot less.

 

[Seagull58]

Drones could annihilate Russian hardware no problem at all, as could NON-NUCLEAR cruise missiles.

There would be no targets for Putin to retaliate against in that sphere.

[But at this stage, I want the West/world to carry on strangling the life out of Russia’s economy, trade, overseas reserves, access to sound currencies, cultural ties and assets held overseas by his cronies].

I was thinking about the drones last night. According to the Ukrainians over 100 Russian aircraft and hundreds of tanks and other armoured vehicles have been destroyed. I would be very disappointed if much of this destruction hasn't been caused by armed drones, either controlled by the Ukrainians themselves or not.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

NATO really is not the beast you think it is,

I have already outlined a fraction of the military conflicts that NATO countries have participated in - it is a beast of US imperialism - and precisely because of the countries in the EU are increasingly pushing for the creation of an EU army to compete.with NATO (and Russia and China).

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

I have to ask you, what do you think Europe would look like if there had never been NATO? I suspect you and I would come up with similar pictures, but you would quite like the look of it, whereas I would like it a lot less.

Don't remember you asking me the question - and my answer would be that it would be a lot less politically unstable than it is now.

In Cold War terms the only distinct change that I would have seen would have been a Stalinist takeover of West Berlin - and Stalin may not even have bothered doing that - the Berlin blockade was a reaction to the attempt by the Western powers to re-unite Germany and install a pro-Western regime in the unified country.

 

[Seagull58]

Interesting discussion on BBC just now, the conclusion being that the next step should be for Europe to cut off Russian energy supplies to Europe. Apparently the only thing Putin has not prepared against. Yes, it will mean mental energy bills for Europeans but people are not going to freeze to death but if the war escalates they may well die in a European war.

Cutting off energy supplies will be catastrophic for Russia’s war machine apparently

I find that very strange to hear as I would have thought that Germany and Ukraine would have shut off Nordstream (not Nordstream 2) several days ago, even though it supplies 30% of Germany's gas (or maybe energy?). The only logical reason that they would leave it running is if they don't plan on paying for the gas they're using.

 

[beorhthelm]

Who benefits from War -

And who loses from war -

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/kentucky-teachers-retirement-fund-lost-3m-selling-investment-russian-b-rcna18781

noted, long defense stocks, short Russian banks.

 

[Baldseagull]

Don't remember you asking me the question - and my answer would be that it would be a lot less politically unstable than it is now.

In Cold War terms the only distinct change that I would have seen would have been a Stalinist takeover of West Berlin - and Stalin may not even have bothered doing that - the Berlin blockade was a reaction to the attempt by the Western powers to re-unite Germany and install a pro-Western regime in the unified country.

OK, I was wrong, we imagine a quite different Europe without NATO to eachother.

 

[Seagull58]

What do you see Putin's end game to be? Do you think once he has annexed the East of Ukrain he will stop, and the west will then remove sanctions?

If the west does not remove sanctions won't this start to hurt the people in Russia?

How long can Putin continue to run he country with a law that puts you in Jail for 15 years for listening to foreign radio or reading foreign web pages? Or will ce recreate the closed world of Hoxa's Albania just for the Russian poor?

The invasion does not seem very strategic to me. Perhaps Putin is far far smarter than me, though.

And what do you think we should do about this? Fight it, ignore it or applaud it?

The only end game I can plausibly imagine that suits Putin is to install a Russia-friendly (puppet) regime in Ukraine as per Ukraine pre-2014 and Belarus currently.

 

[pb21]

I find that very strange to hear as I would have thought that Germany and Ukraine would have shut off Nordstream (not Nordstream 2) several days ago, even though it supplies 30% of Germany's gas (or maybe energy?). The only logical reason that they would leave it running is if they don't plan on paying for the gas they're using.

https://www.reuters.com/business/en...ting-nord-stream-1-pipeline-paper-2022-02-28/

 

[Baldseagull]

I have already outlined a fraction of the military conflicts that NATO countries have participated in - it is a beast of US imperialism - and precisely because of the countries in the EU are increasingly pushing for the creation of an EU army to compete.with NATO (and Russia and China).

Have you? I saw you mention Vietnam, not a NATO involved conflict, but definitely a cold war proxy that the US chose to involve itself in, not NATO.
Are we counting Turkey in Cyprus, UK in the Falklands as NATO aggression and American Imperialism ?

NATO played a large part in former Yugoslavia, providing safe zones, and enforcing UN Sanctions, would there be greater political stability in that region without NATO?

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

NATO has never been a 'defensive alliance' - many countries who are part of NATO have engaged in naked military agression over the past 70 years (the Americans in Vietnam as a prime example - although there are a large number of others) - usually with the tacid or open support of the rest of NATO - who have their 'backs'.

Dangerous parroting of Putin's propaganda.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

NATO is about exercising imperial power - and in the case of NATO, predominantly the imperialist interests of the USA. The assertion you are making is that individual NATO countries can plunder, pillage and destroy other countries - but dare anyone attack one of us and will with throw the full force of the most advance military capabilities against you.

That really is jumping through hoops to defend the rights of the big and powerful against the small and weak.

Dear oh dear oh dear

 

[Bold Seagull]

NATO has never been a 'defensive alliance' - many countries who are part of NATO have engaged in naked military agression over the past 70 years (the Americans in Vietnam as a prime example - although there are a large number of others) - usually with the tacid or open support of the rest of NATO - who have their 'backs'.

Vietnam simply isn’t as simple as that. The US didn’t want to be involved in Vietnam, but given the French colonial administration was defeated by the North Vietnamese, the South Vietnamese desperately looked to the West for help defending their country from the North seeking unification. Much like Russia looking to unify the old Soviet Union through invading Ukraine, the North was doing the same. The question isn’t American aggression, it’s whether America should have just allowed the North to take the South by force and leave them to it? If there is a lesson from Vietnam, it’s that you cannot necessarily resolve a conflict through force in a place who’s history / culture you little understand.

 

[dejavuatbtn]

Perhaps we should supply Ukraine with loads of decent jet fighters and drones that they can pick up on the Polish border. They then fly over and blow the hell out of the convoy that seems to be waiting until Kyiv is taken. Also supply them with some cruise missiles they can send over to Moscow to see if they can take out the idiot running the place.

 

[Seagull58]

https://www.reuters.com/business/en...ting-nord-stream-1-pipeline-paper-2022-02-28/

Hopefully they will be told very forcibly to get their heads out of their arses and shut it down immediately.

 

[Hugo Rune]

Dangerous parroting of Putin's propaganda.

I don’t think it’s dangerous.

Just incredibly naive and nonsensical historical relativism; primary school level I’d say.

He’ll be castigating Boris the Liar over the Irish potato famine and the Boer Wars concentration camps next.

Some people are very sensitive and thin skinned and need a historical crutch to lean on, no matter what is happening in the present day. You can label almost any country anything if you go far enough through the history books. Pathetic.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Siege of Sarajevo, not much more than 20 years ago, in central Europe, lasted nearly 4 years. West just stood by and let it happen. Same will happen in Ukraine. Shameful geopolitical ****s then, same now

 

[HantsSeagull]

voting yes is voting for armageddon.

which is why NATO will sacrifice Ukraine to avoid such a scenario. Realpolitik.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Yes. Ukrainians are dying for our freedom at the moment. Doesn’t sit right at all. We have the firepower to defend them. Take out that convoy for a start.

 

[Deleted member 2719]

I don't trust Putin whichever way, I mean who bombs a nuclear plant?

Surely it's a matter of time before he makes it a world war.

This has to be going the whole way unless he and his men are taken out quickly....hardly likely.