Shootings at Pulse nightclub in Orlando

[El Presidente]

And look how badly prohibition ended up. People think it's bad now with guns, I don't think they understand how badly it could end up if all of a sudden they started to try and forcibly take guns off people

As much as I am anti gun I agree with you here.

The genie is out of the bottle as there are 300 guns out there already and they don't decay.

As Americans you seem to shrug and accept mass killings and just get on with it. It's an attitude that causes us to scratch our heads though.

 

[BadFish]

I've fired assault rifles at gun clubs, amazing fun to be able to use them. I can see why people would want to own one to use.

Gun clubs would be able to get the licences.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

?

UK - 8700 alcohol related deaths
US - 88000 alcohol related deaths, with 25% of population reporting they'd indulged in binge drinking in the past month

If you had their population you'd be up around 45,000 deaths.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Gun clubs would be able to get the licences.

Not everyone has access to such gun clubs. What about rural/isolated people?

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

As much as I am anti gun I agree with you here.

The genie is out of the bottle as there are 300 guns out there already and they don't decay.

As Americans you seem to shrug and accept mass killings and just get on with it. It's an attitude that causes us to scratch our heads though.

They could easily do a buy back like we did here. Offer people $ for guns they don't use and are just sitting around.

Just don't do what we did and turn honest law abiding citizens into criminals overnight.

 

[Bozza]

There does seem to be a long-term trend that Americans are getting rid of guns themselves anyway. It's just taking a bloody long time given the starting point.



More: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...out-about-guns-and-mass-shootings-in-america/

 

[El Presidente]

Not everyone has access to such gun clubs. What about rural/isolated people?

Surely they'd be using rifles for hunting rather than assault weapons?


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[BadFish]

Not everyone has access to such gun clubs. What about rural/isolated people?

Like i said make licences difficult to get (bot impossible). The point being not to ban guns per se but to have background checks etc that are in-depth enough to keep them out of the hands of people with serious mental health issues or links to ISIS.

 

[Tom Bombadil]

I've fired assault rifles at gun clubs, amazing fun to be able to use them. I can see why people would want to own one to use.

Ive driven a car at 140mph. It was fun, but I don't want people to doing that on public roads.

 

[El Presidente]

Enough of this nonsense about guns anyway.

Let's get back to blaming the gays for choosing a lifestyle that offends God.


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[alfredmizen]

Like i said make licences difficult to get (bot impossible). The point being not to ban guns per se but to have background checks etc that are in-depth enough to keep them out of the hands of people with serious mental health issues or links to ISIS.

Members of the General Public do not ''need'' fully automatic weapons, i'd make licences impossible to get .

 

[BadFish]

They could easily do a buy back like we did here. Offer people $ for guns they don't use and are just sitting around.

Just don't do what we did and turn honest law abiding citizens into criminals overnight.

My wife's old man refused to sell his back as they weren't offering enough, The thing was held together by string. He was on the run for years....... they never caught him though.

 

[Acker79]

To me, that's a straw man argument as it could be equally argued that a gun's purpose is to defend.

Defend by damaging and killing.

And as for alcohol, people so frequently mis-use alcohol in this country that we are now de-sanitised to it. Speak to anyone who works in the front line at an A&E and they will tell you this. The reality is that by banning alcohol we'd massively reduce problems in our society, but understandably nobody wants this.

I'm not saying people don't misuse alcohol. I'm not saying guns are to blame for every gun crime. I'm not wanting to get involved in the debate about this specific incident.

I'm saying comparing something that only does damage when misused with something that is designed to do damage is a poor argument.

Same with guns.

Nonsense. A gun is not designed to give you a little buzz in small doses, and only does damage if you use it too much, or don't use it in accordance with operating instructions. It is a tool and a weapon as it's primary function.

A gun is designed to do many things. Only mentaly unstable people buy it with the express purpose of killing someone in cold blood.

Normal people buy it for sport, hobby, safety.

A gun is designed to do one thing: propel ammunition at such force it can rip through whatever it is aimed at: animals (hunting), people (guns designed for war, personal protection, etc). Damage is a gun's design, not the side effect from a gun's misuse.

 

[nicko31]

There is little point trying to reason with Americans on this subject there is a completely different attitude and culture around guns in the UK. I just count myself lucky that I live in a country that responded to a child shooting with anger and tightened up gun ownership rather than merely accepting thousands of deaths as a price worth paying to protect the right to bear arms.

You are right. They have a 9/11 worth of deaths every few weeks from guns and they still don't get it

 

[BadFish]

Members of the General Public do not ''need'' fully automatic weapons, i'd make licences impossible to get .

There are endless things that people don't 'need', people are allowed to want stuff. If they are going to use them safely without endangering other then they should be able to.
Anyway I think we both agree that US gun laws need a lot of tightening up. Where that finishes is neither here nor there.

 

[Simster]

I'm not saying people don't misuse alcohol. I'm saying comparing something that only does damage when misused with somthing that is designed to do damage is a poor argument.

It's only a poor argument because it doesn't fit with your view that guns should be illegal and alcohol shouldn't. If that is your view then why not legalise certain outlawed drugs? They're not designed to do damage either. Equally we should probably outlaw rat poison and various other chemicals, as that is designed to do damage too.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

It has to be a combination of both no?

We should be discussing Islam and its anti gay ideologies here, not guns.

The main issue has been hijacked by those who have a secondary issue. Islamists have shown bombs will do fine when guns aren't available.

This is politicizing these poor peoples deaths for some other sick purpose.

I live in Sweden where you can only buy alcohol (over 3.5%) in bars (no takeaway) or from one shop which closes at 3pm on a Saturday and is closed on a Sunday. Would the alcohol-related death rates in the UK go down if we switched to the Swedish model? Pretty likely. But I'm not an idiot. I believe people should be able to have the right to choose to drink/smoke without punishment. A gun a is very different type of killer than alcohol.

That's because you don't like guns. I don't drink and in my life i've enver eoncountered gun violence, but I have experenced violence due to alcohol many times. Tell me which of the two should I truly be concerned about?

I'm concerned about the realistic fixes to the problem. It's about minimising risks isn't it? Tighter gun control. Improving mental healthcare, preventing young muslims from exposure to these ideas etc. Which is easiest to fix? I'd say that making sure weapons capable of killing hundreds in a few seconds are not available to anyone in the general population is pretty high up the list of things to fix.

So the only people who truly give any of their freedoms up are the people who are law abiding citizens who have done nothing wrong.

That won't go down well at all.

They're two very very different things though.

No they aren't. They are both about restriction of freedom of choice. That's one thing I admire about a great many people in the US. The mind set that never should they trust their government and to value their own liberty over what the Government tells them to do.

 

[Acker79]

It's only a poor argument because it doesn't fit with your view that guns should be illegal and alcohol shouldn't. If that is your view then why not legalise certain outlawed drugs? They're not designed to do damage either. Equally we should probably outlaw rat poison and various other chemicals, as that is designed to do damage too.

Have I said guns should be illegal and alcohol shouldn't?

My view is that something that only does damage when misused (alcohol) can't be compared to something that's primary design is damage (guns)

 

[El Presidente]

The mind set that never should they trust their government and to value their own liberty over what the Government tells them to do.

Fair enough.

Where do you stand on

1: Abortion
2: Seat belt use in cars
3: Smoking in bars and restaurants?

Is that also the state sticking it's nose into the affairs of individuals?


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[pb21]

Is that a specialists view then? I don't really understand what it is you're getting at?

Sorry, I was being facetious to make a point. Your original post was spot on IMO.