[News] Shemima Begum- Should she be allowed to return to the UK?

[jcdenton08]

She was 15. She was a child.

What do you think would be an appropriate outcome?

 

[southstandandy]

Putting aside any views on the rights or wrongs of her actions and the decision made today, surely it's in her best interests to stay away from the UK.

If she was to return, as sure as hell the tabloids would find her, and pretty soon some loony will come out of nowhere and harm or even try to kill her.

In some respects the UK has a duty of care and keeping her away is surely in her best interests from a personal safety point of view.

 

[Javeaseagull]

This country seems terrified of children. Especially brown children. In boats.

 

[jcdenton08]

Putting aside any views on the rights or wrongs of her actions and the decision made today, surely it's in her best interests to stay away from the UK.

If she was to return, as sure as hell the tabloids would find her, and pretty soon some loony will come out of nowhere and harm or even try to kill her.

In some respects the UK has a duty of care and keeping her away is surely in her best interests from a personal safety point of view.

She would also be arrested and held indefinitely on terrorism charges as an adult. People seem to think had this appeal been successful, she’d simply move here and be given a home. They’re right but that home would be a secure wing of a women’s prison, awaiting trial for what are very serious criminal charges.

 

[Hamilton]

Putting aside any views on the rights or wrongs of her actions and the decision made today, surely it's in her best interests to stay away from the UK.

If she was to return, as sure as hell the tabloids would find her, and pretty soon some loony will come out of nowhere and harm or even try to kill her.

In some respects the UK has a duty of care and keeping her away is surely in her best interests from a personal safety point of view.

This is an interesting piece in Arab News. It might suggest that she'd be delighted with the celebrity. If these accounts are accurate, she still has to accept the consequences of her actions.

Filmmaker who met Shamima Begum describes her as a ‘narcissist’

LONDON: Andrew Drury, a documentary filmmaker who met Shamima Begum in a Syrian refugee camp, describes her as a “narcissist” who sees herself as a “celebrity” after the recent media attention, The Times reported. Drury has traveled to Syria several times to speak with the former teen Daesh...

www.arabnews.com

 

[portlock seagull]

Like the Scottish referendum, have we reached a point in time where you can just keep appealing until - probably due to fatigue - you win? And should that decision be final if it comes about? Could that be appealed and appealed and appealed until overturned? How many bites at the cherry do people get these days, on just about everything they don’t like? Of course the obvious thing to avoid such trouble in this example is not to join a murderous blood thirsty cult of your own free will and marry one of the sick bastards too. Call me old fashioned…

 

[Billy the Fish]

My 2 pence worth - a country shouldn't be able to make someone stateless. She was born here, deal with her here.

I watched the documentary on iPlayer last week, well worth a watch if you're interested. She's quite obviously a danger and it was interesting seeing how she says what people want to hear once the cameras are rolling. Reading between the lines I'm convinced the security services know exactly what she was up to in Raqqa and that's why they haven't let her in. But taking it back to point 1, she was born here so she's our shit-sandwich and we should all have to take a bite.

 

[BHANSC]

Shame she didn't end up like the two others she went out there with.

 

[Zeberdi]

This is the full Judgment of the most recent Appeal but also contains the full details of Begum’s case history as presented to the Supreme Court and previous decisions of the lower courts (a lot to read but if people are interested in the facts)

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Shamima-Begum-OPEN-Judgment.pdf

There are complex moral and legal issues involved and have been from the beginning - Criminal ‘Justice’ often is a difficult balancing act between the rights of the individual versus the rights of the state - in Begum’s case: The Right to Citizenship -V- The Rule of Law and in particular, whether Sajid Javid’s decision to revoke her citizenship was legal.

There are also complex ongoing issues surrounding her rights to Dutch and Bangladeshi citizenship and whether a revocation of her British citizenship has actually rendered her ‘stateless’ for the purposes of the Court.

Back to thread Poll - Morally - her motivation for her wanting her citizenship back is obvious to me and does not necessarily imply a genuine repentance of her terrorist activism or beliefs - being tried and being detained by the English Criminal Justice System is a darn sight less horrific than being detained by a Syrian prison-camp as an ISIS supporter, so on those grounds, she should probably earn a compassionate reversal of Sajid Javid’s initial decision back in 2019 by the now (or a future) HS, Suella Braverman and be allowed back into the UK to be tried as a terroist.

Syria: Repatriations Lag for Foreigners with Alleged ISIS Ties

More than 42,400 foreigners accused of Islamic State (ISIS) links remain abandoned by their countries in camps and prisons in northeast Syria despite increased repatriations of women and children in recent months.

www.hrw.org

 

[jakarta]

This country seems terrified of children. Especially brown children. In boats.

Apart from the fact that she is 23 and not in a boat that is a pretty accurate post...

 

[carlzeiss]

Apart from the fact that she is 23 and not in a boat that is a pretty accurate post...

1 out of 3 ain't bad

 

[Ali_rrr]

This is the full Judgment of the most recent Appeal but also contains the full details of Begum’s case history as presented to the Supreme Court and previous decisions of the lower courts (a lot to read but if people are interested in the facts)

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Shamima-Begum-OPEN-Judgment.pdf

There are complex moral and legal issues involved and have been from the beginning - Criminal ‘Justice’ often is a difficult balancing act between the rights of the individual versus the rights of the state - in Begum’s case: The Right to Citizenship -V- The Rule of Law and in particular, whether Sajid Javid’s decision to revoke her citizenship was legal.

There are also complex ongoing issues surrounding her rights to Dutch and Bangladeshi citizenship and whether a revocation of her British citizenship has rendered her ‘stateless’ for the purposes of the Court.

Back to thread Poll - Morally - her motivation for her wanting her citizenship back is obvious to me and does not necessarily imply a genuine repentance of her terrorist activism or beliefs - being tried and being detained by the English Criminal Justice System is a darn sight less horrific than being detained by a Syrian prison-camp as an ISIS supporter, so on those grounds, she should probably earn a compassionate reversal of Sajid Javid’s initial decision back in 2019 by the now (or a future) HS, Suella Braverman and be allowed back into the UK to be tried as a terroist.

Syria: Repatriations Lag for Foreigners with Alleged ISIS Ties

More than 42,400 foreigners accused of Islamic State (ISIS) links remain abandoned by their countries in camps and prisons in northeast Syria despite increased repatriations of women and children in recent months.

www.hrw.org

Well put, it's just a mess of a case. Human aspect aside, it will be a great topic for future law students to debate in the future in terms of law and morality.


Regarding her Dutch citizenship, incredibly it wasn't that she was underage when she married her husband, it was the fact she would have technically been a dual national which is prohibited by law here, unless you are unable to give up your citizenship - which only would've been possible if she was a Bangladeshi citizen. The Dutch government now doesn't recognise marriages that were made under the age of 18 in any territory as a result of this case.

 

[The Optimist]

Good luck with that

Managed it for 2.5 years looking at the post dates!

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

I don't see how it is legal to make someone stateless and I don't see how it is the right thing to do.

She's seemingly committed a criminal offence. Let her come back if she chooses, or pursue extradition and then let her make her case in a court, just like every other person who commits a criminal offence.

I really don't see how she's different. Yes it was a terror group she joined, but we've had loads of people commit crimes.

Worse it sets a precedent that it's a politician not a judge who decides the fate of those suspected of criminal actions. Sorry but not many people trust politicians.

Making someone stateless is yet another message that the UK doesn't intent to honour the law or honour it's obligations.

 

[Whitechapel]

Just because she’s of mixed race makes no difference whatsoever.

Is she mixed race?

Cost. They don't have to pay for her food, the cost to search her mail. It costs a lot to have someone in prison

We live in a country where a fairly sizeable chunk of our prisons are now privately owned to turn a profit.

You’d think making a profit off an actually dangerous criminal would be a better option than locking up some lad who sells weed. Obviously not though.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Is she mixed race?



We live in a country where a fairly sizeable chunk of our prisons are now privately owned to turn a profit.

You’d think making a profit off an actually dangerous criminal would be a better option than locking up some lad who sells weed. Obviously not though.

By charging the government (i.e., the taxpayer) over the odds for the provision they provide.

 

[Whitechapel]

By charging the government (i.e., the taxpayer) over the odds for the provision they provide.

Yep.

But I’m sure there’s a few nice backhanders that help the people in charge not realise how much of a terrible idea it is.

 

[Sheebo]

Is she mixed race?



We live in a country where a fairly sizeable chunk of our prisons are now privately owned to turn a profit.

You’d think making a profit off an actually dangerous criminal would be a better option than locking up some lad who sells weed. Obviously not though.

Have I used the wrong PC term? Asian or whatever - not white not black - in the middle? Not sure what you’re meant to say these days…

 

[clapham_gull]

Guilty people DO get acquitted you know.

So let's get rid of the courts and dump British Citizens on other countries who have nothing to do with them.

Explaining why he’s against the move on his Friday night LBC show, Mr Rees-Mogg said: “I think there is a fundamental equality in British citizens and if you can’t take my passport away, then you shouldn’t be able to take it away from anybody else.”

He continued: “Ms Begum should be brought back to England and prosecuted if she has committed offences, rather than told to go to Bangladesh.

“Why on earth should Bangladeshis pick up a problem that’s essentially our problem. We’re trying to put our litter in our neighbour’s garden.”

Jacob Rees-Mogg Says He’s AGAINST Revoking Shamima Begum’s Citizenship

Jacob Rees-Mogg told LBC listeners why he has “great worries” about Isis bride Shamima Begum’s UK citizenship being revoked by the Home Secretary.

www.lbc.co.uk

I totally agree.

 

[GingerBeerMan]

So let's get rid of the courts and dump British Citizens on other countries who have nothing to do with them.

Jacob Rees-Mogg Says He’s AGAINST Revoking Shamima Begum’s Citizenship

Jacob Rees-Mogg told LBC listeners why he has “great worries” about Isis bride Shamima Begum’s UK citizenship being revoked by the Home Secretary.

www.lbc.co.uk

I totally agree.

Having read the replies in this thread I now think she should be allowed to return for a trail in the UK. Which worryingly seems to put me on par with JRM