No need for discussion, as it will only lead to ‘Pit’ territory. Just vote in the poll.
[News] Shemima Begum- Should she be allowed to return to the UK?
- Thread starter wellquickwoody
- Start date
Got something to say or just want fewer pesky ads? Join us... 😊
- Oct 17, 2008
- 14,542
Shamima Begum bid to regain UK citizenship rejected
The 23-year-old loses her appeal against the decision to remove her citizenship on national security grounds.
www.bbc.co.uk
Good luck with that
I don't think so to be honest. It's racist dog-whistle politics from a failing government.
Another little rip in the UK's tattered reputation.
Live by the sea
Well-known member
- Oct 21, 2016
- 4,718
The only sensible decision the govt could make given the circumstances.
Ali_rrr
Well-known member
I try and stay away from politics as much as possible on this site, but I wrote my thesis on her and it's a case that puts morality and justice against one other. Morally, it's reprehensible what she did and actions have consequences etc., legally, this is horrendous.
I don't think there is a 'right' answer, certainly not an answer that has or will ever satisfy everyone.
Facts aside, it sets worrying judicial precedent.
I don't think there is a 'right' answer, certainly not an answer that has or will ever satisfy everyone.
Facts aside, it sets worrying judicial precedent.
Easy 10
Brain dead MUG SHEEP
I watched that recent documentary on BBC 'The Shemima Begum Story' (still on iPlayer) which has in depth interviews with her, her ISIS husband and others involved, very interesting.
What comes across is how...emotionless she is. She had 3 children over there, all of whom died, yet she discusses this in the same matter-of-fact deadpan way we tells the rest of her story as if in passing. I'm not sure I buy the naivity she claims when she decided to travel to Syria at 15 to join ISIS. She seems very switched on, intelligent and articulate, its not like she'd have been able to further educate herself over there.
Is she a threat to the UK ? Has she been radicalised, could she carry out or still be a conduit to an attack on UK soil ? Impossible to say, but the government has taken a tough stance in this case, perhaps to act as a deterrent and to show the consequences if other UK citizens choose to leave these shores and join a terrorist regime that wants us all dead.
What comes across is how...emotionless she is. She had 3 children over there, all of whom died, yet she discusses this in the same matter-of-fact deadpan way we tells the rest of her story as if in passing. I'm not sure I buy the naivity she claims when she decided to travel to Syria at 15 to join ISIS. She seems very switched on, intelligent and articulate, its not like she'd have been able to further educate herself over there.
Is she a threat to the UK ? Has she been radicalised, could she carry out or still be a conduit to an attack on UK soil ? Impossible to say, but the government has taken a tough stance in this case, perhaps to act as a deterrent and to show the consequences if other UK citizens choose to leave these shores and join a terrorist regime that wants us all dead.
Greg Bobkin
Silver Seagull
- May 22, 2012
- 16,055
I caught a bit of the interview with her the other week and felt for her a little. Although I take everything she said with a pinch of salt.
The other thing I thought was whether that fella who was jailed for spying/passing intel to the Russians had his British citizenship removed – or if there are any plans to do so? Potentially, his actions are as dangerous as hers – or even more so, no?
The other thing I thought was whether that fella who was jailed for spying/passing intel to the Russians had his British citizenship removed – or if there are any plans to do so? Potentially, his actions are as dangerous as hers – or even more so, no?
Deleted member 37369
Well-known member
- Aug 21, 2018
- 1,994
I've been listening to this weekly podcast (from the same chap that did the BBC TV documentary mentioned by @Easy 10 ) ... really well put together and makes for interesting listening.
www.bbc.co.uk
BBC Sounds - I'm Not a Monster - Available Episodes
Listen to the latest episodes of I'm Not a Monster on BBC Sounds.
www.bbc.co.uk
Nobody doubts that what she did was morally reprehensible, but:
a) She was a child.
b) Hundreds of ISIS fighters have returned to this country. What about them?
c) Imagine if a French girl bombed a British city and the French turned to us and said "You can't send her here, she's not French anymore". Would we be expected to pay the £500k bill to keep her in our prisons?
Ali_rrr
Well-known member
It's been a legal mess with her citizenship. Under international law you cannot make somebody stateless. This is also enshrined in British law. Essentially, under Bangladeshi law everyone born to Bangladeshi parents receives nationality automatically, regardless of where they are or what they've done. Except, the Bangladeshi's want absolutely nothing to do with her and she would face the death penalty if she was granted citizenship. Her 'husband' is Dutch so the UK government thought about using this too, except the Dutch don't allow dual nationality. The British security guard doesn't have another nationality/citizenship, so it's a lot more complicated.
What is does theoretically set, is that any British citizen who travels abroad could have their citizenship revoked for being in the wrong circumstances and would likely face a lengthy court battle depending on the circumstances.
- Oct 17, 2008
- 14,542
Is it not the case that this decision was made on the basis of security intelligence, that Begum still posed a threat to Britain?
Without seeing that confidential evidence, weighing it against risk and making a decision as the home office have (presumably) done, we the public are in the dark.
I do think she comes across very poorly (such as in the documentary available on iPlayer) and has sought to minimise her guilt throughout. But this alone would not constitute a “security risk”.
I suspect we will not get the full picture for a long time, if ever.
Without seeing that confidential evidence, weighing it against risk and making a decision as the home office have (presumably) done, we the public are in the dark.
I do think she comes across very poorly (such as in the documentary available on iPlayer) and has sought to minimise her guilt throughout. But this alone would not constitute a “security risk”.
I suspect we will not get the full picture for a long time, if ever.
Ali_rrr
Well-known member
a) She was a child. Absolutely, which makes you wonder how she was even able to get outside the UK in the first place.
b) Hundreds of ISIS fighters have returned to this country. What about them? The difference here is they are already back home. Whether or not they should've been allowed to return/prevented is an entirely different question which I don't want to get into.
c) Imagine if a French girl bombed a British city and the French turned to us and said "You can't send her here, she's not French anymore". Would we be expected to pay the £500k bill to keep her in our prisons? Can't really say much on this as legally it's different as we have extradition treaties with them. What I will say, as a British citizen if she is at a risk of torture/inhumane treatment or likely to face the death penalty, she should've been brought back as it's enshrined in the ECHR.
Weststander
Well-known member
Covered on LBC, there’s mention of what various governments have on her, in terms of what she actually got up to and actively thrived on whilst there. Was she just a passive victim of a groomer/rapist, appalled by the murder of gays thrown off of buildings? Or very much part of it all whilst there?
Greg Bobkin
Silver Seagull
- May 22, 2012
- 16,055
Here's another question: if she's deemed a threat to Britain, surely it doesn't matter where she is? She could be as much of a threat to Britain from a camp in Syria – possibly even more so, if she is pissed off about not getting her citizenship back.
And if she's done something wrong – or if she IS deemed a threat – why wouldn't/couldn't she be arrested for something?
I'm not entirely sure what the end game is here – she just lives out the rest of her life in a Syrian camp with fack all to do? As @Ali_rrr says, it seems to be a bit of a legal (and maybe political) mess.
And if she's done something wrong – or if she IS deemed a threat – why wouldn't/couldn't she be arrested for something?
I'm not entirely sure what the end game is here – she just lives out the rest of her life in a Syrian camp with fack all to do? As @Ali_rrr says, it seems to be a bit of a legal (and maybe political) mess.
Ali_rrr
Well-known member
To answer this, if she was/is to have her citizenship returned, she would be arrested and charged immediately at the border. Not too familiar with British criminal law, but I imagine it would be a life sentence, with her being constantly watched within prison to prevent radicalisation of others.
worthingseagull123
Well-known member
- May 5, 2012
- 2,688
So many legal experts defending her who know more about human rights and international law than our Independent Judiciary top UK Barristers.
Amazing.
Amazing.
Sheebo
Well-known member
- Jul 13, 2003
- 29,319
Either way, and I see both points, I cannot see how it’s racist at all. Just because she’s of mixed race makes no difference whatsoever. She went and joined a terror group etc - colour of her skin etc makes no difference to anything for me… Not sure Isis and Siria can be compared to the French etc it’s about anti terrorism more than anything.
nicko31
Well-known member
If she was white and from Weybridge, she'd be sent home to face justice